Another Benefit of Brexit?

Hurrah

Fleurpepper and in a dystopian novel, or play you might have a starring role!

It claims to be politically neutral ronib - but difficult to tell. I could only find an update on their site, the Maude review seems to have been quietly dropped by the government - or, at least it didn’t report back in the autumn of 2022 as it was meant to, and hasn’t been mentioned in dispatches since July.

Casdon

I believe that was a Liz Truss initiative ronib. It ‘lost momentum’ in the political turmoil last year. Here’s an update.
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/whitehall-monitor-2023/year-ahead

Casdon is the think tank The Institute for Government headed up by Baroness Amos? Is this a politically neutral organisation do you know?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dickens

vegansrock

Yes, remember we were told “we hold all the cards” and “ they need us more than we need them “ and “German car manufacturers would force the EU to give U.K. a good deal” etc. Obviously lots of people believed this. Maybe they are delusional enough to still believe it or now they think the EU forced us to sign a deliberately bad deal as some sort of punishment we obviously didn’t deserve. May I remind those who take this line - no one had to sign up to this deal- we were told it was marvellous, oven ready etc.

You know, you can re-quote these comments from various individuals which, at the time, were enthusiastically swallowed and repeated by many (it seems) Brexit enthusiasts, but it makes not one scrap of difference to those who still believe (and say) that the EU is a corrupt, evil, bureaucratic institution. They are and will remain convinced that the EU is punishing us for leaving - regardless of the fact that we have now put ourselves in the position of a 'third country' and will automatically have to abide by regulations that cover that status. It is a sad - and alarming - fact that some Brexiters have confused "third country" with "third-world country". I would emphasis some because I think they are a minority, Brexiters I know can distinguish between the two. However, it does indicate a level of misunderstanding and ignorance of how the EU functions. When you consider that we've got the government we now have because of such unawareness, it makes it very hard to tolerate the accusations of 'Remoaners' not 'respecting' the "democratic" will of the Leave contingent.
But, worse than that IMO, is that Brexit has almost become another victim of the "no debate" culture. As far as many Brexiters are concerned, it's over and done with, and any discussion about its effects on individuals, or the nation as a whole, is tantamount to treachery - it is unpatriotic to question the aftermath of the event. This is what disquiets me most - that the biggest change to our economic and constitutional life since the end of the 2nd world war is, in the minds of many, a forbidden topic. It is illogical and it is unnatural... and IMO it's almost criminal - that any attempt to talk about the repercussions of Brexit is regarded as subversion. The critics are often the very same people who rail against the 'cancel culture' and 'wokeness' in universities where individuals have been no-platformed for holding views that are contrary to current thinking and beliefs. Yet they themselves are not open-minded enough to allow opinions against Brexit - hence all the "get over it" type of comments from Brexiters when Remainers dare to question the validity and purpose of leaving the EU.
I don't believe Brexiters knew at all what they were voting for - how could they with all the conflicting hype from the Leave campaign. They simply wanted to leave, and we did. Unfortunately, leaving was just the beginning of the end, and not the end itself.
... but, we shouldn't talk about it, just accept it. And "hope for the best" or believe that it will "all sort itself out". Meanwhile, the government that got into power on the back of it is wreaking havoc on the nation.
I find it utterly depressing.

Thank you so much Dickens for this. Just how I feel but you said it so well.

ronib

Fleurpepper imagine what you like.
Does anyone take this issue seriously?

The National Audit Office, among others has produced a report specifically on the Civil Service and its role in Brexit. There are articles too.

You don’t ever ask Civil Servants about their work. It’s not for you to know.

Keep reading the Daily Mail if it helps you.

I don't read it! But this is a very open and public Forum, and journalists do peruse regularly, I am sure. Your recent comments would be very easily picked up, and taken for a big ride.

I believe that was a Liz Truss initiative ronib. It ‘lost momentum’ in the political turmoil last year. Here’s an update.
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/whitehall-monitor-2023/year-ahead

Lord Maude on 27th July 2022 was to lead the review into Civil Service governance and accountability. I can find no finished report.
I have found mention that the heads of civil service departments should not be civil servants but political appointees.
I have no way of knowing what the current state of play might be.
There seems to be some dissatisfaction with the relationship between government and Civil Service but I don’t believe there’s enough whitewash to absolve either group.

ronib

Casdon one point you have overlooked. The government in recent years has changed so many times and continues to do so. In these particular circumstances, the Civil Service will hold the balance of power I suggest.

It was me who mentioned that ronib.
Is it the fault of the civil service if the government can’t get its act together and the politicians keep changing -no.
Is it the fault of the civil service if, by being a consistent presence through all the government changes they know more than the government-no.
And finally, do the civil service hold the balance of power- of course they don’t, how could they, they work at the behest of the politicians, they can only advise not take unilateral action.

Blaming civil servants is just an attempt to shift the responsibility from politicians who made the wrong decisions.

And are still making the wrong decisions

Are you suggesting we aren’t serious? A social science degree would teach you that anecdote is not evidence.

MaizieD is anyone serious on this forum?

I have a degree in the social sciences (Sociology) too ronib, that’s a coincidence.

Posters don’t ignore evidence in the main, and on the political threads there are a lot of very knowledgeable people. What I haven’t seen is any compelling evidence that indicates that the civil service are culpable for the post Brexit chaos. Of course as a tribe they would understand the pitfalls more than any politician, and will have advised accordingly, but at the end of the day they are not in control, the responsibility lies with the politicians not the servants - they are called that for a reason.

Casdon I was asked about how many Civil Servants I knew and to shut them up I said 4. Thinking about it, I know more and I too don’t know why it’s a relevant question.

That's not the way to conduct a discussion, ronib. If you want to be taken seriously you'll have to do better than that.

Casdon one point you have overlooked. The government in recent years has changed so many times and continues to do so. In these particular circumstances, the Civil Service will hold the balance of power I suggest.

Casdon I was asked about how many Civil Servants I knew and to shut them up I said 4. Thinking about it, I know more and I too don’t know why it’s a relevant question.

I am a trained social scientist and would encourage an ability to objective research as this might aid our understanding. Probably a lost cause .

ronib

Fleurpepper imagine what you like.
Does anyone take this issue seriously?

The National Audit Office, among others has produced a report specifically on the Civil Service and its role in Brexit. There are articles too.

You don’t ever ask Civil Servants about their work. It’s not for you to know.

Keep reading the Daily Mail if it helps you.

That made me smile ronib, because it’s very unlikely to be Daily Mail readers who are disagreeing with you on this thread.

One thing that’s occurred to me while reading your responses is that if you don’t ever ask civil servants about their work, what relevance is it that you have four in your family because they obviously don’t tell you anything at all?

The government has consistently ignored the advice from the civil service, who understand the implications of political actions far better than any politician does because they are detail people. Of course there are issues with the civil service, no public body is without them - but that is not why we are where we are.

The other slogan was “no deal is better than a bad deal”, more whistling in the wind, no deal would have been armageddon, the bluff was ignored by the EU.

Now, what’s done is done, we get on with it and make the best of what we havn’t got.

Fleurpepper imagine what you like.
Does anyone take this issue seriously?

The National Audit Office, among others has produced a report specifically on the Civil Service and its role in Brexit. There are articles too.

You don’t ever ask Civil Servants about their work. It’s not for you to know.

Keep reading the Daily Mail if it helps you.

vegansrock

Yes, remember we were told “we hold all the cards” and “ they need us more than we need them “ and “German car manufacturers would force the EU to give U.K. a good deal” etc. Obviously lots of people believed this. Maybe they are delusional enough to still believe it or now they think the EU forced us to sign a deliberately bad deal as some sort of punishment we obviously didn’t deserve. May I remind those who take this line - no one had to sign up to this deal- we were told it was marvellous, oven ready etc.

You know, you can re-quote these comments from various individuals which, at the time, were enthusiastically swallowed and repeated by many (it seems) Brexit enthusiasts, but it makes not one scrap of difference to those who still believe (and say) that the EU is a corrupt, evil, bureaucratic institution. They are and will remain convinced that the EU is punishing us for leaving - regardless of the fact that we have now put ourselves in the position of a 'third country' and will automatically have to abide by regulations that cover that status. It is a sad - and alarming - fact that some Brexiters have confused "third country" with "third-world country". I would emphasis some because I think they are a minority, Brexiters I know can distinguish between the two. However, it does indicate a level of misunderstanding and ignorance of how the EU functions. When you consider that we've got the government we now have because of such unawareness, it makes it very hard to tolerate the accusations of 'Remoaners' not 'respecting' the "democratic" will of the Leave contingent.
But, worse than that IMO, is that Brexit has almost become another victim of the "no debate" culture. As far as many Brexiters are concerned, it's over and done with, and any discussion about its effects on individuals, or the nation as a whole, is tantamount to treachery - it is unpatriotic to question the aftermath of the event. This is what disquiets me most - that the biggest change to our economic and constitutional life since the end of the 2nd world war is, in the minds of many, a forbidden topic. It is illogical and it is unnatural... and IMO it's almost criminal - that any attempt to talk about the repercussions of Brexit is regarded as subversion. The critics are often the very same people who rail against the 'cancel culture' and 'wokeness' in universities where individuals have been no-platformed for holding views that are contrary to current thinking and beliefs. Yet they themselves are not open-minded enough to allow opinions against Brexit - hence all the "get over it" type of comments from Brexiters when Remainers dare to question the validity and purpose of leaving the EU.
I don't believe Brexiters knew at all what they were voting for - how could they with all the conflicting hype from the Leave campaign. They simply wanted to leave, and we did. Unfortunately, leaving was just the beginning of the end, and not the end itself.
... but, we shouldn't talk about it, just accept it. And "hope for the best" or believe that it will "all sort itself out". Meanwhile, the government that got into power on the back of it is wreaking havoc on the nation.
I find it utterly depressing.

growstuff

ronib

Whitewavemark2

At what level?

Classified information

I can just imagine the Daily Mail writing 'mother of VERY Senior Civil servants says Brexit was poorly executed by them'

I’d still love to know how much the government have given Nissan thus far to avoid this. I seem to remember Nissan threatening to sue vote leave because they wrongly said that Nissan supported them but nothing then came of it.

I see Nissan now state that their U.K. plant is no longer cost effective.

Yes, remember we were told “we hold all the cards” and “ they need us more than we need them “ and “German car manufacturers would force the EU to give U.K. a good deal” etc. Obviously lots of people believed this. Maybe they are delusional enough to still believe it or now they think the EU forced us to sign a deliberately bad deal as some sort of punishment we obviously didn’t deserve. May I remind those who take this line - no one had to sign up to this deal- we were told it was marvellous, oven ready etc.