How soon before the next step to privatising the state schools?

Joseanne

I think it is taking it a bit far to suggest that parents at fee paying schools are busy polishing their halos at freeing up a space for another pupil. I've never read any questionnaire answers, to why have you chosen a private education, which say, "because we are so selfless we want to free up a place for another child."

A few pages ago these same parents were actually criticised for being callous, and not giving a caring thought to other working class children.
It seems to me people just want to take a pop at them from every direction.

Indeed. Popping from every direction.

No halo polishing and no part of the decision process on where to send the children. But obviously spaces are opened in public schools by some children attending private schools.

GagaJo

*Incidentally, a lot of jobs, including the Civil Service, do not let you apply using your school background or name. Everything is anonymous so that the Application detail does not identify you but allows you to talk about your achievements only. In one place, my son couldn't even put his grades, he just had to say A*-C or similar.*

Not sure how this statement helps, if a private student's A* is the equivalent of a state student's B. It is still extremely unfair that private students are allowed to do IGCSEs which give them a grade inflation of 2 grades. It's social engineering.

And this statement:
was expected to have 3 A's whereas people from State Schools were only expected to have 1 A and 2 B's for the same Uni and course

If they were international A Levels (which admittedly are less common than international GCSEs, and therefore his would probably have been standard A Levels), his 3 X A* would have been the equivalent of 3 Bs for British A Levels.

The government that underfunds state schools, is deliberately giving private school students even more of an advantage than they already have, by allowing their grades to be artificially inflated. This is nothing to do with funding.

The system is deliberately rigged. Not for nothing is Oxbridge massively weighted against state school students. (Again, improving I know, but not proportionately yet).

Not sure how this statement helps, if a private student's A* is the equivalent of a state student's B. It is still extremely unfair that private students are allowed to do IGCSEs which give them a grade inflation of 2 grades. It's social engineering.

No, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick of what I am saying. If it was working on points, I'd agree but we are talking about on offers. My son took the same A levels as State School Students but his grades had to be much higher than theirs in order to get into Uni. That is supposed to balance things but some could argue that this is social engineering against the Private School student.

Not sure how this statement helps, if a private student's A* is the equivalent of a state student's B. It is still extremely unfair that private students are allowed to do IGCSEs which give them a grade inflation of 2 grades. It's social engineering.

As nobody gives their grade OR their Exam Board, it is done only on their application form and letter of application. If nobody knows the exact grade, exam board or name, there can be no bias therefore no social engineering.

IGCE's are far more rigorous than GCSE's so the argument against them is a bit spurious too!

volver

Norah

volver

I've only ever heard this view on GN. People using private education (or healthcare) are freeing up a space for another person. They're just saintly, really. It's tantamount to altruism. ?

Guess I should get out more.

Private education and healthcare do free up space.

Well done you, learning.

Do they teach patronising condescension at these wonderful schools? Or is that just something you're born with?

No, just Saintly and altruistic behavious.

Actually, Saints are important at our GC Catholic schools. Religious education, including the Saints of course, is taught.

Can't win for losing. If children are sent to private schools what exactly are they taking away from children in state schools. They are indeed freeing up spaces in (some say) overcrowded public schools.

Same as private healthcare. Not taking from people using NHS.

Incidentally, a lot of jobs, including the Civil Service, do not let you apply using your school background or name. Everything is anonymous so that the Application detail does not identify you but allows you to talk about your achievements only. In one place, my son couldn't even put his grades, he just had to say A*-C or similar.

Not sure how this statement helps, if a private student's A* is the equivalent of a state student's B. It is still extremely unfair that private students are allowed to do IGCSEs which give them a grade inflation of 2 grades. It's social engineering.

And this statement:
was expected to have 3 A's whereas people from State Schools were only expected to have 1 A and 2 B's for the same Uni and course

If they were international A Levels (which admittedly are less common than international GCSEs, and therefore his would probably have been standard A Levels), his 3 X A* would have been the equivalent of 3 Bs for British A Levels.

The government that underfunds state schools, is deliberately giving private school students even more of an advantage than they already have, by allowing their grades to be artificially inflated. This is nothing to do with funding.

The system is deliberately rigged. Not for nothing is Oxbridge massively weighted against state school students. (Again, improving I know, but not proportionately yet).

I've always advocated less homework, DasiyAnne, especially at primary school level. At those ages, homework simply isn't necessary. I bet most grans on here never did homework while they were at primary school.

being slightly flippant. Even as a child I was an early riser. I would hated to have had to go to school later. At one point, living outside the UK, I started school at 8.00am and finished at 1.00pm., with only one short break. I loved it. On the other hand Finland has little or no light in winter and little or no dark in summer. Does this affect things?

A number, 3,4,9, seem fairly common in the UK

8, is in the lap of the gods, whether teachers stay in a school long term. Apart from the atmosphere in the school, it depends on the availability of the right staff. I can remember in one school year having 4 not very good teachers in one subject until the right person was found, the same happened to DC and from talking to my DDiL, something similar happened to one of my DGC - and they still have some years at school to go.

I am very ambivalent about starting school later. What exactly does it mean? Nothing until 6 or 7? Simply calling child educational provision under the age of 6 or 7 something else. Children going into separate institutions at 6 or 7 like the primary/secondary divide.

We are a family of self-taught very young readers and that that caused problems when both children started school. Fortunately, in both cases they were in a group with one or two other children. Both groups were moved into a higher class, which solved the problem for the reception class, but then caused problems when decisions had to be made about leaving them in another class for 2 years. What happens to children like that, if they do not start school until they are 6/7?

I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed this, but it does seem that some are saying that state education must have everything, regardless of cost, that independent education provides. I would agree that the full cost of what is provided has to be funded but we do need to remember this is state-funded education not mirrors of Eton.

We may even find we want different rather than that provided by the schools of old. People talk about Finish education. This is a list from an article headed "10 Reasons Why Finland's Education is the best in the world". I do wonder what the GN boards would be saying if this was brought in for our schools.

1. No standardized testing
2. Accountability for teachers (not required)
3. Cooperation not competition
4. Make the basics a priority
5. Starting school at an older age
6. Providing professional options past a traditional college degree
7. Finns wake up later for less strenuous schooldays
8. Consistent instruction from the same teachers
9. A more relaxed atmosphere
10. Less homework and outside work required

www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/10-reasons-why-finlands-education-system-is-the-best-in-the-world

Doodledog

What is your opinion on the fairness of that, ICHTB?

Well, when it is your son going through it, it seemed a little unfair because I am a mother lioness but I can see that there is a need if pupils from State Schools can't get an equal education which I would campaign for. As for the anonymous job applications, I think that is an excellent idea because in general I am anti discrimination, positive or negative.

What is your opinion on the fairness of that, ICHTB?

GagaJo

And as for exams being equal!

Private schools are allowed to teach/examine for international GCSE. Public are not.

International GCSE grades are 2 levels higher than GCSE. I'm an examiner for one of the biggest exam boards. This is a fact.

So a private school student taking IGCSE gets a 9. The equivalent at GCSE is a 7. Two grades lower. Yet both are accepted by colleges/universities. Same for international A Levels.

My son had to have far higher grades to get into Uni with his private education. We had no idea this was the case until he started applying. He was taking 4 A levels and was expected to have 3 A*'s whereas people from State Schools were only expected to have 1 A and 2 B's for the same Uni and course. So you might get more points for the IGCSE but that is evened out when it comes to how many points you need to get in if you are from different backgrounds.
Incidentally, a lot of jobs, including the Civil Service, do not let you apply using your school background or name. Everything is anonymous so that the Application detail does not identify you but allows you to talk about your achievements only. In one place, my son couldn't even put his grades, he just had to say A*-C or similar. There are a lot of misconceptions about Private Education and advantages or the type of people who use it.

I think it's fair to assume that most people who choose private schools want to get their children the things that state schools can't offer, such as contacts/networks, small class sizes, extra-curricular activities and so on, and it is easier to pay for these things (if you can afford them) than to work with schools to ensure that they are available to all. It's probably also fair to assume that the same logic that makes people fume that their degrees are less valuable now that more people have them means that many people don't want the advantages of private education to be available to all - it would reduce the advantages that they are paying good money to acquire for their own offspring.

Joseanne

I think it is taking it a bit far to suggest that parents at fee paying schools are busy polishing their halos at freeing up a space for another pupil. I've never read any questionnaire answers, to why have you chosen a private education, which say, "because we are so selfless we want to free up a place for another child."

A few pages ago these same parents were actually criticised for being callous, and not giving a caring thought to other working class children.
It seems to me people just want to take a pop at them from every direction.

It is true, though!
When our new comprehensive school was opened, applications for places went up that year and applications for the independent schools went down. Some children not in catchment who might normally have been considered for places at the comprehensive school (eg those just out of catchment area, sibling at the school) didn't get them.

Joseanne

I think it is taking it a bit far to suggest that parents at fee paying schools are busy polishing their halos at freeing up a space for another pupil. I've never read any questionnaire answers, to why have you chosen a private education, which say, "because we are so selfless we want to free up a place for another child."

A few pages ago these same parents were actually criticised for being callous, and not giving a caring thought to other working class children.
It seems to me people just want to take a pop at them from every direction.

Well said.

I think it is taking it a bit far to suggest that parents at fee paying schools are busy polishing their halos at freeing up a space for another pupil. I've never read any questionnaire answers, to why have you chosen a private education, which say, "because we are so selfless we want to free up a place for another child."

A few pages ago these same parents were actually criticised for being callous, and not giving a caring thought to other working class children.
It seems to me people just want to take a pop at them from every direction.

Norah

volver

I've only ever heard this view on GN. People using private education (or healthcare) are freeing up a space for another person. They're just saintly, really. It's tantamount to altruism. ?

Guess I should get out more.

Private education and healthcare do free up space.

Well done you, learning.

Do they teach patronising condescension at these wonderful schools? Or is that just something you're born with?

volver

I've only ever heard this view on GN. People using private education (or healthcare) are freeing up a space for another person. They're just saintly, really. It's tantamount to altruism. ?

Guess I should get out more.

And it even happens in Scotland!?

I don’t think it frees up places though.

Don't worry, everyone.

If the OP is correct, then all schools will become private schools. ?

(In England anyway)

volver

I've only ever heard this view on GN. People using private education (or healthcare) are freeing up a space for another person. They're just saintly, really. It's tantamount to altruism. ?

Guess I should get out more.

Private education and healthcare do free up space.

Well done you, learning.

I've only ever heard this view on GN. People using private education (or healthcare) are freeing up a space for another person. They're just saintly, really. It's tantamount to altruism. ?

Guess I should get out more.

Are state schools free, though? The pupils still have to buy uniforms, books , computers etc and pay for outings and trips. At least they do here. I figure those sending kids to private schools have already paid taxes, some of which go to state schools. They are,in fact, subsidising state schools because they are creating vacancies which they have already paid for. Just saying.

Sago

One of the key differences between state and private/public school is the length of the school day.
Once 13 our boys started at 8.40am and finished at 8.30pm.
In this time all meals were eaten, 90 minutes of sport played, all homework done and an extra curricular activity.
In the lower school it was 6.30pm.

True. Apart from lessons, including PE/sport, the fees pay for 3 meals a day, supervision of ‘homework’ tasks, extra-curricular activities-although those were often an extra and childcare. In addition, private school holidays are longer, because they condense the teaching into longer days. I’ve attached a link so you can see what I mean. www.educationtay.com/private-school-days/

That’s something a government or even state school parents don’t take into account when they want to make school days longer. Longer school days-more teaching crammed in - I can hear the applause!
But longer holidays to find childcare for because they’ve already had their teaching time? I can imagine the booing which seems to have become fashionable recently.

One of the key differences between state and private/public school is the length of the school day.
Once 13 our boys started at 8.40am and finished at 8.30pm.
In this time all meals were eaten, 90 minutes of sport played, all homework done and an extra curricular activity.
In the lower school it was 6.30pm.

growstuff

M0nica

Lists do not have to be written. Just PTA's asking the school what they would like them to spend the money raised to help the school on, and I have yet to meet a head teacher that didn't have one or two items from the small and trivial to the quite expensive on the tip of their tongues.

How many secondary schools still have PTAs?

True growstuff. None of the schools I've worked in have had them. Never thought about it until you mentioned it.

Fleurpepper

Of course the basic fee of 30+ k is just the basic- music, danse, trips, uniform and so much more are on top and represent a good 1/3 more. Never mind boarding, or boarding with a poney!

Here the cost is £4-6,000 a term for a day student, discounts for multiple children in a family (price age dependent).

M0nica

Lists do not have to be written. Just PTA's asking the school what they would like them to spend the money raised to help the school on, and I have yet to meet a head teacher that didn't have one or two items from the small and trivial to the quite expensive on the tip of their tongues.

How many secondary schools still have PTAs?