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Today’s Mini Budget.

(374 Posts)
Urmstongran Fri 23-Sept-22 10:03:22

What do we think of Kwarteng’s statement?

volver Sat 24-Sept-22 08:08:20

Then what is the point of it? Answer: none at all. And they call it "work".

Like I said, what a way to run a country.

MaizieD Sat 24-Sept-22 08:47:54

Katie59

You know perfectly well that he will rubber stamp whatever the government puts in front of him, the monarch has not declined to do that for 300 yrs.

There have been times when the monarch has been held to metaphorical gunpoint before they reluctantly 'signed off'. The 1832 Parliamentary Reform Bill, for one. And I seem to recall a standoff with Lloyd George in the early 20thC.

Didn't we have a lot of republican angst on here recently about the monarch having input on legislation before it's enacted 'Queen's consent'?

DaisyAnne Sat 24-Sept-22 09:30:27

I have no doubt the King will give whatever cautious advice he can. As you will all know, he has no political role, so that is all he can and must do.

He will then sign the documents as the constitutional Head of State on our behalf. We, under the democracy we have chosen, have elected this government so he has sign what they produce, even if he baulks at doing so and advises Truss against going ahead with this. But we should never know that. At least not unless someone leaks (which I imagine breaks the Official Secrets Act) or the far distant date when his diaries are published.

I don't know about others, but if the Republicans have to keep suggesting this works in anyway other than constitutionally - and we voted the governments in who make the constitution - it looks, to me, like they have run out of anything other than gossip and inuendo for an argument.

But can we please not let the republicans take over another thread when what is the elected and possible to depose government is playing fast and loose with our lives.

volver Sat 24-Sept-22 09:40:09

Boo!!

Oh sorry, forgot I wasn't allowed...

Fleurpepper Sat 24-Sept-22 09:40:33

From the NY Times- the view from over the pond, and the rest of the world, very worrying indeed.

By Paul Krugman

Britain is in a very difficult economic position. The British economy, like the U.S. economy, seems to be seriously overheated, with substantial amounts of inflation driven by high domestic demand. Unlike America, it is also facing the full force of Europe’s energy crisis, driven by the efforts of President Vladimir Putin of Russia to use a shut off of natural gas to bully the West into abandoning Ukraine.

So many of us expected Britain’s economy to go through a rough patch in the months, or maybe even years, ahead. What few foresaw, as far as I can tell, was a policy zombie apocalypse.
I’ve written a lot over the years about zombie economic ideas — ideas that have failed repeatedly in practice, and should be dead, but somehow are still shambling around, eating policymakers’ brains. The pre-eminent zombie in American economic discourse has long been the belief that cutting taxes on the rich will create an economic miracle.

That belief is still out there: Even as its infrastructure was collapsing to the point that its largest city no longer had running water, Mississippi tried to raise its economic fortunes with … a tax cut. But in America, zombie economics has lately been overshadowed by zombie beliefs about election fraud, the impact of immigration and so on.

Britain, however, doesn’t (yet?) have an equivalent of the MAGA movement. What it does have is Liz Truss, a new prime minister who seems to be an ardent believer in economic fallacies from the Thatcher/Reagan era.
Before I get to the economic plan that has produced chaos in Britain’s bond and currency markets, let’s talk about the myths that seem to have inspired her.
The important point to understand is that there isn’t a serious debate about the proposition that tax cuts for the rich strongly increase economic growth. The truth is that there is no evidence — none — for that proposition.

Of course, people on the right, raised on the legend of Saint Reagan, believe that his tax cuts did wonders for the U.S. economy. But the data don’t agree.
Reagan did drastically cut taxes on high incomes. Here are Congressional Budget Office estimates of the average federal tax rate paid by the top 1 percent:

The ups and downs of elite taxes

Note both the steepness of the Reagan cut and the rise under Clinton, both of which are relevant to the story.
So what did happen to economic growth? It’s important to distinguish between the long-run trend — which was what tax cuts were supposed to improve — and business cycle fluctuations. Here’s real G.D.P. from the early 1970s (when for some reason growth slowed around the world) until the end of the Reagan era, measured on a log scale so that a straight line represents steady growth:

What Reagan didn’t achieve

I’ve also included a red line showing the growth trend over the whole period. What this picture suggests is that underlying U.S. growth was pretty much unchanged through the 1970s and 1980s. The economy slumped during recessions — especially the double-dip recession of 1979-82 — and grew rapidly during recoveries, but by the end of Reagan’s reign it was more or less exactly where you would have expected it to be if you extrapolated the trend from 1973 to 1979.
And let’s extend the picture through the 1990s:

Remember the Clinton bust? Neither do I.
Bill Clinton effectively undid the original Reagan tax cuts, amid many predictions of imminent disaster. The economy actually grew somewhat faster than it had under Reagan, and by the end of the Clinton years it was above the level it would have reached if you just extrapolated the 1973-1989 trend.
There have also been multiple state-level examples. There was the Kansas tax-cut “experiment,” which was a flat failure. There was Jerry Brown’s California tax hike, which some on the right called “economic suicide,” but somehow failed to prevent an economic boom.

Finally, there’s evidence from abroad. As Martin Wolf of The Financial Times points out, since Margaret Thatcher, Britain has been relatively deregulated and low tax compared with its European neighbors. Its relative economic position hasn’t changed much at all.

So there is no reason anyone who isn’t a right-wing apparatchik, sealed in a hermetic intellectual bubble, should believe that tax cuts for the rich are the answer to what ails us.
Yet on Friday, the Truss government announced plans for big tax cuts, notably a 5 percentage point cut in the tax rate on top earners and cancellation of a planned tax hike on corporations. Unusually, these plans were described as a “fiscal event” rather than a budget, allowing the government to avoid presenting any detailed fiscal or economic projections — projections that would surely have been either dire, ludicrous or both. But officials still insisted, despite all the historical evidence to the contrary, that their tax cuts would do great things for the British economy.

Obviously, I don’t believe their assurances. More important, neither do financial markets. Interest rates soared on the prospect of increased government borrowing, while the foreign exchange value of the pound plunged.
Either of these market movements would, on its own, have been a signal that investors don’t think the Truss government knows what it’s doing. But their combination is especially ominous.

You see, when advanced countries run big budget deficits, we normally expect their currencies to rise. That’s because we expect their central banks to raise interest rates to offset the inflationary impact of the budget deficit, and these higher interest rates tend to attract increased foreign investment. That is in fact what happened under Reagan, where a surging budget deficit — caused by tax cuts and increased military spending — led to a very strong dollar:

When deficits strengthened the dollar

But right now, British markets aren’t acting like those of an advanced country. They are, instead, behaving like those of a developing country, in which investors tend to see budget deficits as a sign of irresponsibility and a harbinger of future policy disaster.

The markets may be overdoing it. Britain isn’t Argentina, and it surely has the economic, the administrative and, I think, the political capacity to turn things around. But the fact that markets are treating it as if it were Argentina shows just how extraordinary a crisis of confidence Liz Truss has managed to create within days of moving into No. 10 Downing Street.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 24-Sept-22 10:18:31

I am convinced that the majority of Tory MPs are feeling more than a little uncomfortable with Truss’s economics and environmental policies, including fracking.

How soon before letters begin to arrive at the 1922 door?

Whitewavemark2 Sat 24-Sept-22 10:19:02

Good article fp

Grantanow Sat 24-Sept-22 10:22:29

In the Reagan year's tax cutting resulted in an economic boom but detailed analysis showed the rich became richer, the middle gained a bit and the poor had incomes reduced. The tax cutting adventure is based on the theory and curve of the economist Arthur Laffer but the curve is a gross oversimplification of tax in the real world. Tax cutting was tried in Kansas by a Republican governor with disastrous results and had to be reversed by the Kansas legislature. All goes to show Truss is economically illiterate.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 24-Sept-22 10:32:48

“Freeports and enterprise zones based on massive deregulation lead to smuggling, illegality, evasion and redirecting investments rather than national growth.”

Whitewavemark2 Sat 24-Sept-22 10:45:21

The RSPCA

What the Government has proposed in today’s mini-budget on top of yesterday’s announcements potentially tears up the most fundamental legal protections our remaining wildlife has.
If they carry out their plans nowhere will be safe. This map shows legally protected areas in purple and orange (the SACs and SPAs) mapped on to districts, in green, that want investment zones. Places where anything could be built anywhere. And these are just the start.
And it doesn’t stop there – the new Retained EU Laws Bill could see the end of basic protections known as the Habitat Regulations. Laws that protect our birds and animals, everywhere from forests to our coasts.
And the real tragedy is this: the utter lack of understanding by ministers that healthy nature underpins a healthy society and a healthy economy. Have they even read their own report?

If ever nature has needed you, it’s now. Contact you MP, mobilise if you can and help the RSPCA and all the charities and institutions that work towards protecting our environment.
The U.K. is one of the most depleted natural environments in the world. So much work is being done to try to reverse this situation, which will be totally trashed if this is allowed to go through.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/957292/Dasgupta_Review_-_Abridged_Version.pdf

MaizieD Sat 24-Sept-22 10:46:01

What bbl**dy planet is Krugman living on?

^ The British economy, like the U.S. economy, seems to be seriously overheated, with substantial amounts of inflation driven by high domestic demand.^

UK inflation isn't driven by high domestic demand at all. How can it possibly be when a significant proportion of the populace are struggling to feed, heat and house themselves.

Our inflation is driven by external price rises, notably energy price increases.

I haven't read any further. Why take the word of a so called 'economist' who can't actually accurately pinpoint the cause of UK inflation?

(I will read it later, haven't time now...)

Fleurpepper Sat 24-Sept-22 10:53:08

In the meantime, insider traders, mates of Truss, Kwarteng and co, are making an absolute fortune betting against the Pound. Perhaps that is why Kwarteng was laughing his head off at the Queen's funeral?

'Odey's hedge fund soars 145% on bets against UK bonds - sources

By Nell Mackenzie'

this is of course FRAUD, 100%, and we are paying for it.

Fleurpepper Sat 24-Sept-22 10:54:27

The full article here, by Reuters

www.reuters.com/business/finance/odeys-hedge-fund-soars-145-bets-against-uk-bonds-sources-2022-09-22/

Whitewavemark2 Sat 24-Sept-22 10:54:38

Yes I read that

Fleurpepper Sat 24-Sept-22 11:57:40

And here, Femi explains what is going on so well.

fb.watch/fKCL0BDEOd/

MaizieD Sat 24-Sept-22 12:06:20

Caught a snippet of news on the radio this morning. Apparently Kwarteng defended his budget by saying it would put money in people's pockets. Too right it will. They're just the wrong pockets...

(Where are our resident defenders of the wealthy, BTW?)

MaizieD Sat 24-Sept-22 12:10:29

this is of course FRAUD, 100%, and we are paying for it.

'Shorting' in itself isn't fraud. But it's fraud if the shorter has been given inside information. Like Farage helping his mate Odey (funny how that name keeps cropping up) by publicly saying that Leave had lost the referendum when evidence shows that he knew that Leave had won...

JaneJudge Sat 24-Sept-22 12:12:55

Is sweetpeasure ok? sad

GrannyGravy13 Sat 24-Sept-22 12:30:53

MaizieD

Caught a snippet of news on the radio this morning. Apparently Kwarteng defended his budget by saying it would put money in people's pockets. Too right it will. They're just the wrong pockets...

(Where are our resident defenders of the wealthy, BTW?)

This defender of the wealthy has already posted that I thought lowering the 45% tax rate to 40% was a bad decision.

I am in favour of not increasing corporation tax.

If the recent NI increase had been ring fenced for social care and NHS I would have been in favour of it remaining, as it stands removing it will help those paying NI along with businesses who pay a proportion of their employees NI.

I think it’s time to increase UC for the poorest in society, and hope that the triple lock pension guarantee is reintroduced next year.

Casdon Sat 24-Sept-22 16:05:32

This is worth reading. Only the top 5% of wealthiest people will benefit for the tax cuts. Everybody else will be worse off. I just don’t think there is any defence at all.
www.itv.com/news/2022-09-24/analysis-finds-only-the-very-richest-households-to-benefit-from-tory-tax-cuts

Callistemon21 Sat 24-Sept-22 16:07:31

There isn't.
It is quite astonishing and blatant.

varian Sat 24-Sept-22 18:13:19

Yet the Daily Mail, Telegraph, The Sun and Express will somehow persuade their readers that this is something they must support.

How do they ever get away with it?

DiamondLily Sat 24-Sept-22 18:38:30

The IFS aren’t impressed. Even the (generally) Tory voting middle classes will lose with this.?

www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/tax-cuts-income-budget-kwarteng-b2174537.html

Katie59 Sat 24-Sept-22 20:29:42

Zombie policy apocalypse according to Krugman, probably close to the truth, they sleepwalked right into a massive loss of confidence.
Short selling sterling must have made a fortune, who was in the know and who made money?. Are they paying tax on those gains in the UK, or maybe Kwarteng planned it all to get a tax windfall.

Urmstongran Sat 24-Sept-22 20:48:28

That Krugerman report is very worrying.
Who is he?
The best thing for purposes of balance would be to find an alternative viewpoint by another economist.
Reading that one the UK is up shit creek without a paddle.