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What is the Tories *real* intention?

(98 Posts)
GagaJo Thu 29-Sept-22 11:27:13

I'm not a Conservative voter, so I'm not able to be rational enough on this issue to come up with anything sensible.

So, to those who understand what they're trying to achieve, could you explain to me?

I understand their usual approach. I might disagree with it, but I understand the general theory of minimal state intevention, market forces etc. But what we have now isn't that. So...

Help please?

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 30-Sept-22 13:09:10

I have not said the present system is fine Katie. But checks and balances and proper scrutiny of plans are vital.

Land banks are essential to ensure supply of housing DaisyAnne. Developers don’t simply wait to buy land when they need to sell houses - the process from acquisition of land to sales isn’t simple. Also, all planning permissions have a finite life with no guarantee of renewal.

DaisyAnne Fri 30-Sept-22 13:01:52

MaizieD

What regulations are preventing these from being built, Katie59?

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/08/over-1m-homes-in-england-with-planning-permission-not-built

Land banking - that's what so many "builders" see as house building.

Katie59 Fri 30-Sept-22 12:56:59

Germanshepherdsmum

Katie59

GSM

I didnt mention housing quality or siting of houses because if there is demand for them they have to be built somewhere.
I concentrated entirely on land cost then you expanded the topic to everything else, you are saying that everything is fine, nothing should change.

I’m not saying that at all. I’m trying to explain a few things based on my decades of experience working for developers and my husband’s too - he was chairman of one of the major house builders. Demand for land won’t decrease its price - quite the reverse due to competition between developers. They don’t make it any more.

So the present system is fine and nothing is going to change.

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 30-Sept-22 12:29:44

Katie59

GSM

I didnt mention housing quality or siting of houses because if there is demand for them they have to be built somewhere.
I concentrated entirely on land cost then you expanded the topic to everything else, you are saying that everything is fine, nothing should change.

I’m not saying that at all. I’m trying to explain a few things based on my decades of experience working for developers and my husband’s too - he was chairman of one of the major house builders. Demand for land won’t decrease its price - quite the reverse due to competition between developers. They don’t make it any more.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 30-Sept-22 12:23:11

OBR are giving Kwarteng forecast Oct. 7th. But he’s not allowing it to be published, until 23 Nov.

MaizieD Fri 30-Sept-22 12:21:58

Oh, Xposts Wwmk

MaizieD Fri 30-Sept-22 12:21:17

There seem to be two different versions of this meeting

The Treasury is saying that there won't be an OBR forecast until 23rd November

OBR say that they're delivering their 'first iteration' (anybody here speak civil service lingo?) on 7th October.

All on this twitter thread, scroll down for the OBR version

twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1575798119920304128

Speculation that Truss wants to develop her bonfire of the regulations plan for 23rd November, too. Presumably to present mini-budget and deregulation as one package.

Fingers tightly crossed that she's actually been ousted before then...

Whitewavemark2 Fri 30-Sept-22 11:58:49

OBR - it seems that Truss and Kwarteng have caved in and agreed for the OBR to issue their analysis on Oct 7th.

This will include the impact of last Fridays debacle.

Still sticking with the line that they will continue with their policies.

Daisymae Fri 30-Sept-22 11:58:14

Prentice

When a meeting is so swift it seems to me that either all was agreed by both sides or nothing was.

I am thinking that nothing was resolved.

Prentice Fri 30-Sept-22 11:44:01

When a meeting is so swift it seems to me that either all was agreed by both sides or nothing was.

MaizieD Fri 30-Sept-22 11:37:29

Katie59

How would less planning restrictions reduce the land cost?

Dear oh dear Maizie , supply and demand surely you understand that, many of the developments are being built on green field sites, every town and village has development on agricultural land, we do not need to give a windfall to lucky landowners.

I perfectly understand the law of supply and demand, Katie59. Try reading my relevant post again.

It seems to me that you are saying that developers should be free to plonk housing anywhere they please?

Whitewavemark2 Fri 30-Sept-22 11:31:46

Katie59

Daisymae

Whitewavemark2

I don’t understand what will be discussed between LT, KK and the independent OBR.

The fiscal analysis of the government’s policies will be what it is. There is nothing to discuss.

What is going on?

Members of the OBR left the meeting after 48 minutes. Thoughts?????

Easy, here is the plan justify it, you’ve got 8 weeks.

It was a bit short, so I suspect nothing much was agreed.

Katie59 Fri 30-Sept-22 11:30:20

Daisymae

Whitewavemark2

I don’t understand what will be discussed between LT, KK and the independent OBR.

The fiscal analysis of the government’s policies will be what it is. There is nothing to discuss.

What is going on?

Members of the OBR left the meeting after 48 minutes. Thoughts?????

Easy, here is the plan justify it, you’ve got 8 weeks.

Katie59 Fri 30-Sept-22 11:28:46

How would less planning restrictions reduce the land cost?

Dear oh dear Maizie , supply and demand surely you understand that, many of the developments are being built on green field sites, every town and village has development on agricultural land, we do not need to give a windfall to lucky landowners.

sarahcyn Fri 30-Sept-22 11:25:33

I'm a Conservative voter and I'm in as much dismay as you are. This strategy seems to me about 40 years out of time. Especially the attitude to the environment and climate change. If I thought Labour were serious about investing in nuclear power, I'd be sorely tempted at the next GE. Always a first time.

Daisymae Fri 30-Sept-22 11:21:19

Whitewavemark2

I don’t understand what will be discussed between LT, KK and the independent OBR.

The fiscal analysis of the government’s policies will be what it is. There is nothing to discuss.

What is going on?

Members of the OBR left the meeting after 48 minutes. Thoughts?????

Katie59 Fri 30-Sept-22 11:16:59

GSM

I didnt mention housing quality or siting of houses because if there is demand for them they have to be built somewhere.
I concentrated entirely on land cost then you expanded the topic to everything else, you are saying that everything is fine, nothing should change.

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 30-Sept-22 10:59:28

The City likes the numbers they have built Maizie. Simple as that.

MaizieD Fri 30-Sept-22 10:40:40

Interestingly, shares in two of the country’s largest house builders, former clients of mine, have risen significantly this morning. That would indicate that the market doesn’t share your views.

Perhaps they sniff that a Labour government is imminent, GSM? they're promising to facilitate much more house building. Or is it the 'bonfire of regulations that Truss's controllers want to see? hmm

MaizieD Fri 30-Sept-22 10:35:06

The cost of new build homes is pushed up by traditional build regulations, that is true.

Can you explain why, JJ?

The story you linked to seems to contradict this. Do the developers have special dispensation to disregard 'traditional building regs'?

We've had a number of timber framed houses built locally; though I appreciate that this is different from using timber panels as cited in the article.
We also have at least one local business producing modular housing. components...

Germanshepherdsmum Fri 30-Sept-22 10:35:02

That all sounds rather muddled Katie. A few comments:

Developers wouldn’t want to build until such time as they know sales are ensured. A great many homes are sold off plan, well before construction has commenced. Only small developers rely on site-by-site finance rather than a revolving facility.

It sounds as though the developer of the site you mention either hasn’t costed the site properly, or the requirement for road improvement works only kicks in once a certain number of homes are occupied (not uncommon). Some developers then try to renegotiate the requirement, mothballing the site by way of blackmail. It sometimes works to their advantage.

It is frequently the case that an initial outline planning permission is granted, with approval of details such as access (often contentious for reasons such as safety and access for emergency vehicles), drainage and materials reserved for approval. The provision and approval of technical details can take some time but is not something on which corners should be cut.

When you say ‘less (sic) planning restrictions would lower the land cost’, you seem to be arguing for a ‘build them anywhere, anyhow’ system. That sort of approach resulted in insanitary, unsafe, Jerry-built back to backs in the past.

Interestingly, shares in two of the country’s largest house builders, former clients of mine, have risen significantly this morning. That would indicate that the market doesn’t share your views.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 30-Sept-22 10:33:03

I don’t understand what will be discussed between LT, KK and the independent OBR.

The fiscal analysis of the government’s policies will be what it is. There is nothing to discuss.

What is going on?

MaizieD Fri 30-Sept-22 10:27:41

^ Less planning restrictions would reduce the land cost, if we need the houses get them built.^

How would less planning restrictions reduce the land cost?

Are you talking about restrictions on where houses can actually be built? Does this lead to scarcity of suitable land, thus giving landowners the opportunity to increase the price ?

They are not being built because the cost is too high...

Do you mean the cost of complying with building regulations? The ones that stop developers building poorly insulated rabbit hutches with shoddy materials?

MayBee70 Fri 30-Sept-22 10:21:27

Wasn’t it said at the time that, had the Twin Towers been built to U.K. regulations they wouldn’t have collapsed the way they did? ( I could be wrong: I read it a long time ago). Which made me realise that our buildings regulations were there for a reason and were probably the best in the world.

JaneJudge Fri 30-Sept-22 10:13:42

This thread is really interesting, thank you.

The cost of new build homes is pushed up by traditional build regulations, that is true.

I was reading about this the other day, it sounds interesting

www.mkfm.com/news/local-news/developers-chosen-for-pilot-scheme-to-build-160-homes-faster-in-new-milton-keynes-estate/