Eddie Izzard

Doodledog

I don’t find any of this funny. None of it. There are ‘genuine’ transpeople who suffer because of exhibitionists like Izzard, women who become a little bit less safe each time a man is allowed in female spaces and a further diminishment of women’s rights and status as a sex class, but you think it’s ’funny’. In fact there are so many funny things about it all that you can choose which is the funniest.

The argument that allowing one man in the Ladies (particularly a famous one) will lead to all men using them was made at the start of the thread. It is not a new one brought in as a diversion.

What has been said that is personal? People are disagreeing, is all. You may feel that you have been misconstrued - we all do from time to time - but as often as not it is because we haven’t made ourselves clear, or our posts are worded ambiguously.

Where are the ‘attacks’? I knew this would happen- there comes a point in every thread when at least one person flounces and the accusations of hounding start.

For the record- I don’t think the argument has been lost at all. The list of defences I posted upthread has been added to by ‘jokes’ about sausages and ‘in shape’ vaginas, which in this context are disrespectful of women who have genuine concerns about men in their spaces. Not all of them - nobody is arguing for sex segregation- but when we are vulnerable, or when privacy and dignity are compromised.

Oh come on the competition for "we are the best feminists" is at least faintly amusing, particularly as this discussion is all (or mostly) women.
Or are you subscribing to the old chestnut that women have no sense of humour?

As far as Izzard leading the way for all men to use the Ladies hasn't it been posted many times that "my son/husband wouldn't do that". Is the sight of Izzard emerging from the Ladies going to change them all?

If you can't see the attacks perhaps you need to examine what you consider acceptable as legitimate criticism of ideas and what you consider personal.

I don’t find any of this funny. None of it. There are ‘genuine’ transpeople who suffer because of exhibitionists like Izzard, women who become a little bit less safe each time a man is allowed in female spaces and a further diminishment of women’s rights and status as a sex class, but you think it’s ’funny’. In fact there are so many funny things about it all that you can choose which is the funniest.

The argument that allowing one man in the Ladies (particularly a famous one) will lead to all men using them was made at the start of the thread. It is not a new one brought in as a diversion.

What has been said that is personal? People are disagreeing, is all. You may feel that you have been misconstrued - we all do from time to time - but as often as not it is because we haven’t made ourselves clear, or our posts are worded ambiguously.

Where are the ‘attacks’? I knew this would happen- there comes a point in every thread when at least one person flounces and the accusations of hounding start.

For the record- I don’t think the argument has been lost at all. The list of defences I posted upthread has been added to by ‘jokes’ about sausages and ‘in shape’ vaginas, which in this context are disrespectful of women who have genuine concerns about men in their spaces. Not all of them - nobody is arguing for sex segregation- but when we are vulnerable, or when privacy and dignity are compromised.

Ah the old-if you can't win the discussion about toilets introduce other scenarios tactic.
Isn't that diversion?
Think I have been accused of that in the past.

Perhaps admitting that by using the women's toilet openly and carefully Eddie did no one any harm at all is too much of a step. If it was done for publicity it has certainly worked.

If the argument is now going to be made that by doing so Eddie sent a signal to all offenders that it is OK to enter a female toilet as long as you are wearing a dress, I don't think you can hold one person responsible for another's actions. and I don't think men intent on assaulting women really bother about what they are wearing. Still you can disagree if you wish. But try to do it without being personal, misconstruing, misrepresenting or otherwise attacking me. I'll have so much more respect for you if you do.

And I think transwomen who don't want to use women's toilets are perfectly entitled to their views, but have no right to insist others agree with them.

VS

* I will decide if I want to answer but you should know that will depend on how I am asked.*

If you can’t answer questions because you don’t like the way they’re put-that makes you a bit Mimi, whether you acknowledge that or not.

I think it’s important that males, even in dresses are not allowed in female toilets or other female safe spaces.

You don’t.

Whilst there are still posters who support the idea that putting a dress on, or calling themselves a ‘woman’ entitles males to

pretend they’re female,

use female toilets, making it quite obvious that they’re male, or for publicity purposes,

use female changing rooms,

cheat in sport,

access female safe spaces,

be housed in female prisons with those of the very sex they have harmed,

et al,

then the discussions are important.

The incredible damage to the image of TIM done by those who have claimed they are women for any of the above will never be undone, but they don’t care about that.

Do you?

It is already a criminal offence to assault women, that doesn't seem to deter those determined to do so. Quite how making entering a public toilet a criminal offence would either prevent assaults or be policed I don't know. As I said before women should be aware of the dangers which will still exist even if entering a toilet was a criminal offence (to Mollygo)

I think the funniest things about these threads is the way we intersectional feminists try to make our points reasonably and carefully whereas the "radical feminists" perpetually misquote and make disparaging remarks about us. To my mind that sums up their feminism, agree with me, or you aren't the right sort of a woman and I will do all I can to destroy you. So I'll stick with intersectional feminism, and actually transwomen seem to getthe idea of supporting others far more

We are having a discussion on the internet. Whether you participate is up to you. These discussions will carry on here and elsewhere.

Good morning

I think if the answers are important to you then you should probably try asking differently.

I've been tagged so many times in a thread I've tried to leave and been insulted to draw me back. I've been:

Accused of making rape jokes (I don't)

Asked if I'd support JS if he had been trans (that was a weird one)

Called narcissistic

And all sorts of other things

So maybe you guys should ask yourselves of you really think these discussions are important?

Or if you just want someone to vent your anger at?

Then proceed accordingly and I will decide if I want to answer but you should know that will depend on how I am asked.

Obviously it's the start of the work week and I'm not likely to be around much.

Have a good week

He should have used the gents, he is very weird, , if I was in there I would come out until he left, he makes me feel uncomfortable, yes, know he does things for charity, there's those that think it's quite acceptable, they have their own reasons for that, I just don't agree.

Rosie51

VS So, no you can't explain what you mean by a toilet is not a safe space ? OK I get that, you typed a sentence with no concept of the meaning. That or you don't want to spell out what you actually meant.

I would point out that words generally have set meanings for the vast majority of people. Feminist has its root in female, and therefore puts females at the centre, as in their rights and protections. In the same way that words that begin paed.... put children at the centre. The canine defence league finds itself putting dogs at the centre, not because they hate bunnies and cats and want them all dead, but because their area of concern is dogs.

As for Action Aid, do you really consider I need your advice on Charity giving. What on earth makes you categorise it as "intersectional feminism"? It is an organisation that clearly puts women (not men, not even those in frocks) and children at the forefront of its concerns and help. Some of us are involved in projects in Uganda that actually help real women and children in their struggles, and appreciate the problems women in these areas face.
I too don't know what these diversions have to do with Eddie Izzard and his blatant disregard for any woman's rights or comfort. He could easily have used the mens toilets. For goodness' sake Glorianny as a female is quite happy and secure in doing so. Eddie even has the required biology to make the urinals something he can use.

Worth rereading for all the information on feminism where VS isn’t aware. THANKS Rosie51.

Feminist has its root in female, and therefore puts females at the centre.
Sidetracking into intersectional has been done before and simply means anything that doesn’t put females at the centre, but tries to push them out. A good self description VS. ??

Action Aid. That’s a real novelty in the diversions offered by either VS, trisher or Glorianny. However, VS in case you missed Rosie51’s information, here it is again:
Action Aid “is an organisation that clearly puts women (not men, not even those in frocks) and children at the forefront of its concerns and help”

VS So, no you can't explain what you mean by a toilet is not a safe space ? OK I get that, you typed a sentence with no concept of the meaning. That or you don't want to spell out what you actually meant.
Probably the latter but . . .

Males have no place in female toilets.

VS So, no you can't explain what you mean by a toilet is not a safe space ? OK I get that, you typed a sentence with no concept of the meaning. That or you don't want to spell out what you actually meant.

I would point out that words generally have set meanings for the vast majority of people. Feminist has its root in female, and therefore puts females at the centre, as in their rights and protections. In the same way that words that begin paed.... put children at the centre. The canine defence league finds itself putting dogs at the centre, not because they hate bunnies and cats and want them all dead, but because their area of concern is dogs.

As for Action Aid, do you really consider I need your advice on Charity giving. What on earth makes you categorise it as "intersectional feminism"? It is an organisation that clearly puts women (not men, not even those in frocks) and children at the forefront of its concerns and help. Some of us are involved in projects in Uganda that actually help real women and children in their struggles, and appreciate the problems women in these areas face.
I too don't know what these diversions have to do with Eddie Izzard and his blatant disregard for any woman's rights or comfort. He could easily have used the mens toilets. For goodness' sake Glorianny as a female is quite happy and secure in doing so. Eddie even has the required biology to make the urinals something he can use.

I don’t know about the UK but we have plenty of unisex toilets here so I can’t see any need whatsoever for men and trans people to use specifically female toilets. It seems this particular human being just wanted publicity . Either that or deliberately taking yet more power off females’ rights.

My point, Glorianny is that the odds on being attacked by a woman in a public loo (or anywhere else, for that matter) are long. In schools, dodgy nightclubs or areas with gangs they will shorten, but most women are in far more danger from men than other women.

Denying that, or suggesting that because there are some, rare cases of women attacking women it is ok to add to that risk by allowing men into female spaces is a spurious argument.

I still don't know what VS's point was. Or why anyone needs to aspire to the same rights and privileges as intersectional feminists - I didn't know that they had more rights than anyone else, but who knows? I don't know what ActionAid has to do with Eddie Izzard using a women's loo either, but this thread does get rather surreal in the hours of darkness.

Also of you have ever heard of ActionAid... Well, intersectional femisim at its finest and lots and lots of ways to achieve positive things. Really wonderful organisation

Doesn't have to be big, involve money or even hours volunteering, just to share and bring awareness to issues women and girls face is enough

That's feminism Rosie

So yes.

I mean, then the hours and hours and hours saying the exact same thing on gransnet but claiming its soneone elses problem to actually do something productive could achieve something instead.

I do care about safe spaces and all decent human beings enjoying the same rights and privileges as an intersectional feminist so I do what I can as part of that group

Gloriannytri you are so funny. Your arguments don’t make sense but you persist in putting them forward and decrying others’ opinions.
Males are not female, and never can be. If no males went into female safe spaces there would be no need for this thread.
A sign might not stop a determined saddo like IE, or a TIM determined to cause harm.
It needs to be a criminal offence so there is punishment for invading female safe spaces.

I’m sure you’ll come up with the “who’s going to check?” argument again, but if there really are those myriad TIM who, according to various posters on various threads, have been using female toilets unnoticed for ages, you’ve answered the point.
If they have been indistinguishable, unthreatening in behaviour, that’s why they (if they exist) have gone unnoticed and unchallenged. But the activities of some TIM and publicity seekers like IE will make that less possible. So not only do they and their fans harm women, but also harm other TIM.
Do they, or you care?
Not a bit.

VioletSky

Meh, nothing original

Please do start campaigning for toilets trans people can use in whatever çapaxity feels comfortable for you and them

Then maybe we will see something new and interesting here

Are you unable to elucidate what you meant in your original post then?

Feel free to start the campaign. Women campaigned for our rights to protected female spaces and categories, do we have to do the heavy lifting for everybody else as well?

No, Buck Angel doesn't believe you can change sex.

Mollygo

Galaxy

Buck Angel (transman) is tweeting about the importance of intersectional trans activism. Buck stresses that this involves respecting female only spaces, respecting child safeguarding, respecting homosexuality and respecting different beliefs. Sounds good.

Fantastic! No sneaky use of the word woman to avoid allowing men to use female only spaces like some do.
Unless Buck respecting different beliefs includes believing you can change sex.

No Buck is intelligent and despite looking 100% like a bloke says nobody changes sex. Doesn't agree with the 'trans kids' affirmation steamroller, believes homosexuality is same sex attraction. Knows that the powerful drugs taken to build the extensive muscle mass and male characteristics will shorten their life.

Galaxy

Buck Angel (transman) is tweeting about the importance of intersectional trans activism. Buck stresses that this involves respecting female only spaces, respecting child safeguarding, respecting homosexuality and respecting different beliefs. Sounds good.

Fantastic! No sneaky use of the word woman to avoid allowing men to use female only spaces like some do.
Unless Buck respecting different beliefs includes believing you can change sex.

Meh, nothing original

Please do start campaigning for toilets trans people can use in whatever çapaxity feels comfortable for you and them

Then maybe we will see something new and interesting here

Doodledog

*A toilet is not a safe space.*

I won't lie to women about that

What does that mean? That it's not safe if men are allowed to use it? Or are you buying into Glorianny's idea that public loos are filled with women waiting for someone to attack?

On the whole, ones in dodgy nightclubs and car parks or other exposed areas aside, Ladies' loos are pretty safe. When they are not, it's because men have gained access, which is the point that sparked this whole thread.

Once again a misrepresentation of what I said. Really is the only way you can justify your views by misrepresenting others.?I said women need to be aware of the dangers in toilets and that one of the dangers can be groups of other women (nothing about them being "filled with women waiting to attack") All young women using clubs and pubs should know this. Other dangers depend on the place, the time of day and other factors. Telling women that predatory men will be deterred by the sign on a door is perpetuating a falsehood. Pretending that transwomen are anything to do with assaults in toilets is detracting from the real issues. That there are places and circumstances that make women vulnerable and there are ways they can better protect themselves and each other. Unfortunately some are far more concerned with their personal vendettas and campaigns against transpeople than with giving women the proper information about the dangers.
Of course most loos are safe which is why the threat supposedly posed by transwomen is so ridiculous. The loos which are not safe are just as dangerous for them.

I've only used the gents twice. Once at an Austrian truck stop when the Ladies was locked. I met an Austrian truck driver on my way in. He was a bit taken aback but we both said good morning and went on our way. The second time was at a concert when we had the usual massive queue for the Ladies. In the end some of us got fed up and took over the gents. As the interval was coming to an end one of the choir came in, looked a bit shocked and said "Could you ladies turn your backs for a minute because we can't start the second half till I'm back on stage" We all obliged and the second half started on time.

A toilet is not a safe space.

I won't lie to women about that

What does that mean? That it's not safe if men are allowed to use it? Or are you buying into Glorianny's idea that public loos are filled with women waiting for someone to attack?

On the whole, ones in dodgy nightclubs and car parks or other exposed areas aside, Ladies' loos are pretty safe. When they are not, it's because men have gained access, which is the point that sparked this whole thread.

VioletSky

It might seem strange to you Rosie but I don't write entire people off because we disagree on one facet of a thing or even more than one at, I only write off people who treat others poorly.

A toilet is not a safe space.

I won't lie to women about that

Sorry I don't understand what you mean by A toilet is not a safe space. Do you mean it's a dangerous place or you don't agree with Buck's opinion that female toilets are for females?
Note that the first line says respects female-only spaces and categories the word 'safe' doesn't appear at all.

Thanks Rosie I am rubbish at links.