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£18bn cuts to public services

(213 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Mon 03-Oct-22 10:36:40

This will have an extraordinary affect on the NHS and education.

What are they thinking!

volver Tue 04-Oct-22 11:34:55

I don't think anybody's told me yet why we pay taxes...?

The description of how government spending is down to investment in gilts or whatever is understood...

But why do we pay taxes....?

This is what I think...we pay taxes to partially offset the money raised by government to run the country on. So although our taxes don't pay directly for particular services, they do pay indirectly because we partially fund the government's debt out of them. So we are entitled to believe that paying more taxes would improve services, because the government would have more money to fulfil its debt obligations.

No...? If not, why do we pay taxes?

Callistemon21 Tue 04-Oct-22 11:17:45

Am not sure about the last part of your comment, as I understood them to be called gilts, the meaning of which was perhaps the word golden?

The paper they were issued on used to be gilt-edged, no longer the case, unfortunately.

Harris27 Tue 04-Oct-22 11:12:48

What a total mess.

MaizieD Tue 04-Oct-22 11:12:07

There, I bet that's ?sent everyone to sleep grin

MaizieD Tue 04-Oct-22 11:10:34

Katie59

“And you are guaranteed to get your money back because a country with a sovereign currency (ie uses and issues its own currency) can never go bankrupt. It will always be able to pay. “

That’s not true there are plenty of currencies that have gone bankrupt Sri Lanka had to be bailed out this year, in recent past Argentina, Zimbabwe, others too.

Well, funnily enough, KAtie59 I happened upon an article about Sri Lanka just last night.

It wasn't currency issuing that did for Sri Lanka, it was a massive amount of foreign debt incurred by following IMF guidance on growing the economy

MMT economist Fadhel Kaboub talks about Sri Lanka in some of his presentations and that he’s been studying the country for years.

Fadhel is an Associate Professor of Economics at Denison University and President of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He brings deeper knowledge of the Sri Lankan economy and the policy decisions that have paved the way for their current predicament.

It takes the form of a dialogue. 'Sharma' is the person who claims that it is MMT that ruined Sri Lanka. This is part of the refutation

KELTON: Sharma argues that it was the “printing of money” that caused inflation to hit record highs. He cites the rate of growth of the Sri Lankan money supply and concludes that inflation hit record highs because the central bank expanded the money supply by 42 per cent from December 2019 to August 2021. Why isn’t this a critique of MMT, and how do you think about the current inflationary pressures?

KABOUB: Sharma is wrong on two fronts here. First, he is assuming that the central bank actually controls the money supply, when in fact the money supply is an endogenous variable determined by the private sector (consumers, business, and banks). The central bank simply accommodates the needs of the market in order to keep short-term interest rates at a stable target, otherwise it will cause all kinds of instability across financial markets. Second, Sharma is assuming that inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply, when in reality, Sri Lanka’s inflation, like many developing countries, imports its inflation via food and energy imports. The higher the pressure on the external balance, the weaker the exchange rate, the higher the inflation pressure from imported goods. Sri Lanka struggled with these pressures for a decade, and managed to muddle through by accumulating more external debt, which quickly became unbearable after the pandemic (loss of tourism, remittances, FDI, and export revenues) and the massive increase in global food and energy prices after the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

The solutions to Sri Lanka’s inflation problems are not in the hands of its central bank. Raising interest rates in Sri Lanka will not end the war in Ukraine, or end the pandemic-induced global supply chain disruptions. The most effective anti-inflation tools fall under fiscal policy. It is the parliament, and the various ministries and commissions that can design strategic investments to boost productive capacity, and have the legal authority to update and enforce antitrust laws. In fact, raising interest rates can often fuel inflation (and inequality) because it is the equivalent of an income subsidy to bond holders, and a tax on actual investors who might be discouraged from increasing productive capacity

KELTON: Sharma appears to know that he has offered a faulty representation of MMT. He anticipates some of the counterpoints that I suspect you and I would both raise. He writes, “proponents of MMT will likely say that this was not real MMT, or that Sri Lanka is not a sovereign country as long as it has any foreign debt.” You have been studying Sri Lanka for a few years now. What, if anything, have policymakers done that suggest that they have been running any kind of “MMT experiment” over the last two years?

KABOUB: Well, this is where Sharma nails it! As I explained above, Sri Lanka’s economic policies don’t even come close to anything informed by MMT insights. Sri Lanka’s government ignored its structural weaknesses, didn’t invest in food/energy and strategic domestic productive capacity, didn’t tax/regulate abusive market power, has a corrupt political system dominated by a single family, and when it was backed into a corner after the pandemic, it doubled down on bad economic decision by claiming that agricultural fertilizers are unhealthy (when they really didn’t have the foreign exchange reserves to pay for the imports), so they destroyed agricultural output, especially rice, in the middle of global food crisis. If the Sri Lankan government was serious about investing in healthy food or a healthy economy, it would have put forward an actual food sovereignty strategy centred on native seeds, it would have discouraged intensive monoculture farming, it would have invested in regenerative farming to undo decades of damage to the soil, and it would have supported farmers to increase yields with well-defined medium and long term strategies. Clearly, this “organic farming” experiment was sloppy at best, but it should not overshadow the fact that the roots of the agricultural vulnerability have been decades in the making.

There is more

gimms.org.uk/2022/05/15/reblog-no-mmt-didnt-wreck-sri-lanka/

It's the same old story in all the countries you cite. Hyperinflation is blamed on increasing the money supply, when in fact it is caused by factors similar to those cited by Fadhel Kaboub.

The only similarity I can see between the UK and Sri Lanka is that of the BoE acting as though raising interest rates will control imported inflation (and I have queried that action on more than one occasion on here).

I did say in my post that there needs to be trust in the currency holding its value.

All currencies, regardless of who issues them, are a matter of 'trust'. As you would have discovered if you'd ever bothered to read the article about 'money' in the BoE Quarterly Bulletin that I have frequently linked to.

Money is a social institution that provides a solution to the problem of a lack of trust.(5) It is useful in exchange because it is a special kind of IOU: in particular, money in the modern economy is an IOU that everyone in the economy trusts. Because everyone trusts in money, they are happy to accept it in exchange for goods and services — it can become universally acceptable as the medium of exchange.

www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/quarterly-bulletin-2014-q1.pdf

Whitewavemark2 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:33:59

Gilts - you may be right maizie.

When I was at school - 100 years ago we looked at banking, the role of the Bank of England, the stock Exchange, and markets etc.

So it is from that memory.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:26:39

MaizieD

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

According to the news, the back benchers and apparently Penny Mourdant are calling for a rise in benefits.

I do not think all is well and cosy in the Conservative ranks, Ms.Truss would never have been my choice.

I wonder if she will get the sack? Not sure what post she holds.

Very articulate woman though. Good speech about the Queen and I liked her when declaring Charles King.

She has in the past voted against benefit increases all the same.

I think the sudden conversion is more with an eye to another leadership bid.

But God forbid that we have to suffer yet another unmandated tory leader as PM.

Oh god!

Katie59 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:25:10

“And you are guaranteed to get your money back because a country with a sovereign currency (ie uses and issues its own currency) can never go bankrupt. It will always be able to pay. “

That’s not true there are plenty of currencies that have gone bankrupt Sri Lanka had to be bailed out this year, in recent past Argentina, Zimbabwe, others too.

MaizieD Tue 04-Oct-22 10:21:33

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

According to the news, the back benchers and apparently Penny Mourdant are calling for a rise in benefits.

I do not think all is well and cosy in the Conservative ranks, Ms.Truss would never have been my choice.

I wonder if she will get the sack? Not sure what post she holds.

Very articulate woman though. Good speech about the Queen and I liked her when declaring Charles King.

She has in the past voted against benefit increases all the same.

I think the sudden conversion is more with an eye to another leadership bid.

But God forbid that we have to suffer yet another unmandated tory leader as PM.

MaizieD Tue 04-Oct-22 10:16:58

prentice yes that’s right golden because they were the safest to invest in. The U.K. government along with USA, Japan etc were seen as the safest investments. Guaranteed to get your money back plus interest.

And you are guaranteed to get your money back because a country with a sovereign currency (ie uses and issues its own currency) can never go bankrupt. It will always be able to pay.

What is at issue at the moment is, I think, more whether our currency can be trusted to hold its value against other currencies rather than fear of repudiation of the 'debt'.

I always understood them to be called 'gilts' because the bond certificates were originally gold edged, but perhaps it's just an urban myth grin

Whitewavemark2 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:10:25

GrannyGravy13

According to the news, the back benchers and apparently Penny Mourdant are calling for a rise in benefits.

I do not think all is well and cosy in the Conservative ranks, Ms.Truss would never have been my choice.

I wonder if she will get the sack? Not sure what post she holds.

Very articulate woman though. Good speech about the Queen and I liked her when declaring Charles King.

Prentice Tue 04-Oct-22 10:07:59

grin thank you Volver for the meaning of the word gilts.
I do like the thought of gilded though.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:06:12

? certainly not at the moment.

They may be doused in another substance though?

volver Tue 04-Oct-22 10:05:03

Nothing to do with being gilded or doused in gold smile

Whitewavemark2 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:04:10

prentice yes that’s right golden because they were the safest to invest in. The U.K. government along with USA, Japan etc were seen as the safest investments. Guaranteed to get your money back plus interest.

Now because the markets are not convince that the U.K. has a safe economic plan, U.K. bonds are at present being considered a higher risk, and so the market is demanding higher interest.

volver Tue 04-Oct-22 10:04:06

GILTS = Government Issued Long Term Stocks.

rosie1959 Tue 04-Oct-22 10:00:46

Casdon not quite sure how Labour could be in power within a year the Conservative party are highly unlikely to call a general election
Vote of no confidence that doesn’t result in a change of government necessarily

Prentice Tue 04-Oct-22 09:55:40

Whitewavemark2

Just in the middle of getting dressed and it occurs to me really government borrowing is just like anyone applying for a mortgage or for a project.

You have to be able to convince the bank that you are a long term safe bet and that they will get their money back.

You have to disclose details of income and how you are going to earn it.

The same for guilts.

PS they are called guilts because they are usually seen as a safe bet in which to invest.

Am not sure about the last part of your comment, as I understood them to be called gilts, the meaning of which was perhaps the word golden?

Casdon Tue 04-Oct-22 09:52:22

rosie1959

Casdon

It certainly won’t benefit the Labour Party either rosie1959, it will make the task of rebuilding the services much harder than it’s already going to be when they get into power - every cut now makes the task ahead a higher mountain.

I was talking more in terms of Labour's popularity.
Surely it would be better for the country if the present government succeed in their aims to reboot the economy
Your post picks up my point of when Labour get into government it could well be quite a while yet

I don’t think it is going to be possible for the Tories to reboot the economy now, trust has been lost both by the public and by financial institutions across the world. The bottom line is that the population don’t want to see any further deterioration in public services to benefit the rich but not those who depend on public services i.e. 99% of the population. For what it’s worth I don’t think it will be ‘quite a while’ until Labour are in power, I think it will be within a year.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 04-Oct-22 09:45:25

volver

^The bottom line is we need investment in infrastructure in the UK^

and I agree with you about that. smile

That would mean state expenditure which the form of economics espoused by Truss and the right wing of the Tory party would be an anathema.

That is why they keep chuntering on about growth - they don’t mean state lead growth they mean growth being led by the market.

MayBee70 Tue 04-Oct-22 09:44:04

We’re a railway family and don’t believe that HS2 is a vanity project. Our railway system is archaic and needs updating and it isn’t possible to do so just using the current tracks. We were waiting at a level crossing the other day and a goods train went through that was carrying Tesco things: first time I’ve seen that. I’ll ask my ex about the reasoning behind HS2 when I see him. He has explained the need for it before but I’ve forgotten what he told me. But it isn’t just about getting from a to b a few minutes quicker.

volver Tue 04-Oct-22 09:03:14

The bottom line is we need investment in infrastructure in the UK

and I agree with you about that. smile

GrannyGravy13 Tue 04-Oct-22 09:01:49

volver

^there is a loud cry ofNoit’s the wrong sort/place/time.^

But sometimes that's true.

I cannot disagree with you in that.

The bottom line is we need investment in infrastructure in the UK

volver Tue 04-Oct-22 08:56:14

there is a loud cry ofNoit’s the wrong sort/place/time.

But sometimes that's true.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 04-Oct-22 08:50:52

As for HS2 we need investment in U.K. infrastructure.

This happens time and time again in the U.K., whatever proposals are put forward there is a loud cry of No it’s the wrong sort/place/time.