Are young people turning gay?

Well, I don’t approve of those actions I posted about. They are actions which are aggressive towards and impact directly on the people who are GLB and are carried out by trans people.

It may be a minority of trans people but I still don’t want to be associated with any group that carries out actions like that.

We all need to be loud in condemning abuse and violence surely in order to eradicate it. Not sweep it under the carpet and pretend it isn’t happening just because it reflects badly on a cause that we support.

Until the Trans community stands up and speaks against those trans people who carry out these behaviours, I have to assume that silence means agreement. And I, like many LGB, have no wish to be part of it.

Lathyrus

“It’s easy for for someone outside a particular group to think they know who belongs in it but ultimately that is for others to decide”.

Hmm. It seems to be easy for you to decide who *should be” in a group labelled LGBTQ+ even if they’ve specifically stated they don’t consider themselves part of that group and don’t want others to place them in it either.

So you persist in placing them where you want them to be.

Not very respectful is it?

But you have done exactly the same to trans people that is placed them all together by describing those you approve of of having one life style and those you don't approve of of having another.
You have condemned the trans community for the actions of a few
There are abusive and violent people in every section of society but we don't judge everyone who belongs to that section by their actions.
The straight, LGB and TQ people living ordinary lives have more in common with each other than they have with violent and abusive people of any persuasion.

“Those who aren’t LGBTQ don’t get a vote”.

So those who don’t agree to be part of the whole group don’t get a vote?

Pretty discriminatory and repressive.

“Anyone has the right to distance themselves from any group if they wish”.

That’s really hard when other people persist in putting you back in the group. And even threaten you for not wanting to be in it.

I wouldn’t dream of insisting anyone who sees themselves as part of a LGBTQ+ group must leave it.

The complementary right to not be involved doesn’t seem to be available, without some level of aggression.

Or even, as Violetsky inferred I’m just “someone outside”.

You know, if you don’t agree, you don’t belong”.

Show me where I have done that Lathyrus

Because I've said the opposite

No one has to include themselves

I'm sure there are other options

“It’s easy for for someone outside a particular group to think they know who belongs in it but ultimately that is for others to decide”.

Hmm. It seems to be easy for you to decide who *should be” in a group labelled LGBTQ+ even if they’ve specifically stated they don’t consider themselves part of that group and don’t want others to place them in it either.

So you persist in placing them where you want them to be.

Not very respectful is it?

Lathyrus

It’s not about acceptance. I accept people have a religious faith, although I don’t.

It’s about two totally different groups of people with different lifestyles, different issues and different desires being lumped together by those organisations who think they can somehow “cater” for them in a one size fits all approach.

When Stonewall made the decision to campaign for Trans rights it didn’t want to to lose its LGB membership so made that conglomeration of letters that suggests it’s all about the same thing.

The past few years have shown that, in fact, there are tensions between the two groups, some quite considerable.

GLB generally do not want to share the safe spaces of the opposite sex and do not want to be identified as such.
Nor with the violent threats that are made on Social media and at Rallys who have chosen to identify as GLB only.
The Gay Erasure stance of some Trans activists has directly threatened GLB people.
Transwomen pressure on Lesbians to have penetrative sex has caused much distress to some young Lesbians.

In fact time has shown that the differences between the two groups are greater than the only common ground they ever had, of supporting one another in the face of discrimination.

Being joined in public perception with a group whose aims and
methods aware not your aims or methods is galling to say the least. Being denied the right to separate yourself from that group is a fundamental denial of a basic human right.

But surely you aren't saying that all gay, lesbian and bi people have the same lifestyles?
I fully accept that you may think there is no connection and may not wish to be associated with trans or queer people. But some people do.
If the alliance is going to split it wouldn't just do so on the trans differences. One of the assertions made in the past (and possibly still made by some) gay and lesbians was that there was no such thing as "bi" only people who hadn't dared to come out openly.
Anyone has the right to distance themselves from any group if they wish. They don't have the right to insist others must do the same.
As for the pressure on lesbians why would you assume a whole group of people should be held responsible for the actions of just a few? Non consensual sex whatever the particulars of the people involved is always wrong.

Actually

L
G
B
T

All seperate groups with seperate needs...

Some don't accept the B, thinking they should pick a side.

But there are many things in common. Words with "phobia" at the end being the primary one.

Also, trans people can be L, G or B too. Another reason for belonging.

It's easy for someone outside of a particular group to think they know who belongs in it but ultimately that is for others to decide.

Like the people in the group

So I am happy with the LGBTQ.

So are many others

We do in fact live in a democracy but those who aren't LGBTQ don't get a vote on this one

It seems to me that there is such a huge difference between the trans community and the much more established LGB community that they should not be lumped together.

I think Stonewall has quite deliberately tried to annex the trans cause as a form of empire building.

All they have in common is the fact that they were at one time marginalised.

However their current situation is quite different and trans people need to be seen in their own right as a quite separate group, facing different challenges.

It’s not about acceptance. I accept people have a religious faith, although I don’t.

It’s about two totally different groups of people with different lifestyles, different issues and different desires being lumped together by those organisations who think they can somehow “cater” for them in a one size fits all approach.

When Stonewall made the decision to campaign for Trans rights it didn’t want to to lose its LGB membership so made that conglomeration of letters that suggests it’s all about the same thing.

The past few years have shown that, in fact, there are tensions between the two groups, some quite considerable.

GLB generally do not want to share the safe spaces of the opposite sex and do not want to be identified as such.
Nor with the violent threats that are made on Social media and at Rallys who have chosen to identify as GLB only.
The Gay Erasure stance of some Trans activists has directly threatened GLB people.
Transwomen pressure on Lesbians to have penetrative sex has caused much distress to some young Lesbians.

In fact time has shown that the differences between the two groups are greater than the only common ground they ever had, of supporting one another in the face of discrimination.

Being joined in public perception with a group whose aims and
methods aware not your aims or methods is galling to say the least. Being denied the right to separate yourself from that group is a fundamental denial of a basic human right.

As the B in LGB I accept the T and the Q

Many many do, some don't

They don't have to if they don't want to.

It's not a required membership or anything

Lots of events that include all of those minority groups. Lots of organisations that are run by and cater for those groups . Lots of people who feel connected and accepted by those groups.
You could equally say that there are lots of events that include churchgoers and hairdressers, but that doesn't suggest either that all hairdressers go to church or that all churchgoers are hairdressers; but churches accept hairdressers into the congregation, and churchgoers are connected to and accepted in hair salons.

In the Venn diagram of life, you can put most groups in society in one circle and find that there will be overlaps with others. It signifies nothing.

DaisyAnne

I haven't read the thread, and this may have been discussed but I find the title very offensive. People do not "turn" gay. Have we learned nothing in the past century?

Maybe you should read the thread. I addressed this a while back and explained the wording.

Why can’t people understand that LGB an TQ+ are totally not connected?
Possibly because in many cases they are. Lots of events that include all of those minority groups. Lots of organisations that are run by and cater for those groups . Lots of people who feel connected and accepted by those groups.
Now you may be someone who wants to totally split the two groups into separate entities. That is entirely your right, but it isn't true to say they have no connection, particularly as the Q stands for Queer which is an identity used by some people in all the other categories.
And the survey included questions about all those identities. It also didn't ask solely about people's personal identification but about the people they have met, family and friends etc. Have you really looked at it at all?
I thought one of the interesting things was the problems Bi people had in coming out etc. I wondered if they felt trapped between straight and gay communities and unable to join either.

Glorianny

It seems to have a fairly clear focus to me Lathyrus to look at how LGBTQ people are viewed in the wider community with some focus on age and attitudes.
It fully admits that it is not a comprehensive study, gives a link to the ONS figures and says more acccurate data will be available when the census is published.https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/rainbow_britain_report.pdf

I’ll have to disagree.

I can’t see how asking people about their own personal sexuality tells you anything except about their own personal sexuality.

It certainly doesn’t tell you how any other group is perceived.

And again it’s just ridiculous to combine two completely separate things in one survey. Would you have a survey on how many people in differing age groups are LGB and eat porridge?

Why can’t people understand that LGB an TQ+ are totally not connected?

Joy241

Thank you Lathyrus. I do agree, but sometimes feel as though, by calling themselves the 'gay community' , they are isolating themselves. It does, of course, depend on the context in which it is used.

I feel a bit like that too. I’m not entirely comfortable with Pride marches etc, as I feel it shouldn’t be necessary. Let people love whoever they want without having to seek approval. Also, the old lady in me thinks we hear too much about what people get up to sexually. Does anyone really care who others are bonking?
I may not have expressed that very well, so await the criticism.

( And many years ago when the contraceptive pill became widely used, my friend’s father ( who was a chemist) maintained that all those female hormones being excreted into the water supply would result in ‘vast numbers of homosexuals’! )

www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/rainbow_britain_report.pdf

Damn forgot a spacehttps://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/rainbow_britain_report.pdf

It seems to have a fairly clear focus to me Lathyrus to look at how LGBTQ people are viewed in the wider community with some focus on age and attitudes.
It fully admits that it is not a comprehensive study, gives a link to the ONS figures and says more acccurate data will be available when the census is published.https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/rainbow_britain_report.pdf

Identification

I wonder how you turn off auto correct.

It could have been a worthwhile survey if it had been properly constructed and carried out with a clear focus Farzanah.
But it was confused in several aspects.

Actually I think you’re conflating sexuality and gender densification too and I really do think they are two completely different things.

Sorry Farzanah that was for Daisy Ann.

Too slow?

A number of posters did make that point?

I was more concerned that the OP was clearly confusing gay with transgender. Not that I blame her because Stonewall bungs them all together too in the survey.

It’s definitely time to stop using LGBTQ+ as as a group identifying when the LGB is about sexual preference and TQ is about gender indentification.

Two quite different things other than both groups might encounter misunderstanding and prejudice. But then so do a lot of other groups and we don’t think it’s appropriate to conjoin them.

You may be right Lathyrus but I don’t think there’s much scientific evidence that this is so, but research in aspects of sexuality and fluidity of gender appears to be in its infancy.
Of course adolescence is a time of experimentation as brain and body change and develops under the influence of hormones, but there are reports of people changing partners to one of the same sex, often around middle age.
Perhaps as society changes, binary sexuality will become less important, and fluidity of gender will become more acceptable. Who knows?

I haven't read the thread, and this may have been discussed but I find the title very offensive. People do not "turn" gay. Have we learned nothing in the past century?