Are young people turning gay?

There have been concerns raised about the use of suicide statistics in this debate, the rate of suicide appears to increase following transition. I say appears and am very wary of saying this because the long term follow ups have been really poor, again one of the findings of the cass report.

Games night.

Have a nice evening all

Mollygo

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

I don't have a solution no.

That's why I asked

Can't help you then Rosie, perhaps Google "trans suicide statistics" for yourself and see if there is something you trust. The government has several more recent studies

Molly

www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/transgender-youths-who-self-harm-perspectives-from-those-seeking-support

VioletSky

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created.
Another “it was already happening” excuse.
What’s your solution? Are you still saying damaging products should be promoted as safer?

VS The first link is 6 years old, the Guardian article is more than 7 years old. The last link will not let me through unless I accept all cookies, something I never do. The two I could access didn't give raw data.
This report by Samaritans makes for interesting reading. Could it be loneliness is the biggest factor in young suicide? www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/research-policy/young-people-suicide/

But people will bind regardless, so obviously we need another solution...

"Binding" started before "binders" were created

VioletSky

Does anyone have any suggestions for how we stop the use of binders at all?

*Does anyone claim to do so?
A good start would be not recommending them, reporting the potential harm done by any AND by not suggesting some are safer without qualifying clearly how they are safer and stating they are still potentially harmful.
If people don’t realise that using duct tape on skin is harmful before they do it, they’ll soon learn. Then they’ll be more likely to be sucked into your ‘safer’ argument. Certainly fabric is unlikely to harm your skin like duct tape, but its action on breast tissues will be no less dangerous.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/transgender-teens-7-6-times-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide

More recent

Also you can always fact check sources of information

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/19/young-transgender-suicide-attempts-survey

The "biased groups" aren't the ones who do the research and aren't the only ones reporting on it

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/#__ffn_sectitle

Pressed post too soon. Meant to quote this from my previous post Historically suicide rates amongst children and adolescents, when they got zero support and affirmation to be transgender, weren't huge

That's one report from a biased group. Without revealing robust data and its collection methods, which they don't include, their statements are baseless.
I can't be the only one who in the worst angst of adolescence briefly mused suicide? Not with any real or attempted intent but if asked had I ever entertained it, my answer would have been yes. They don't reveal how and where they obtained their control data. Children with autism have a higher suicide rate than their neurotypical peers, and that will include confused, questioning children.

www.gendergp.com/what-is-the-transgender-suicide-rate/

Because the studies already exist

Why does it get proffered about an assumed huge rise in suicides if affirmation and interventions aren't applied? We're constantly told there has always been this incidence of transpeople and the massive increase in numbers visible is solely because of acceptance these days. Historically suicide rates amongst children and adolescents, when they got zero support and affirmation, weren't huge, so why would there be an assumption they'd explode now?

Does anyone have any suggestions for how we stop the use of binders at all?

What if we could somehow determine who is wearing a binders and prevent them and denying that led to more asking for surgery as soon as it was legal to do so and regretting it?

Would that meant making it illegal to have gender reassignment surgery?

What if that meant a huge increase in suicide?

It's just not that simple

It's all relative I suppose

Once pipes were recommended as a “safer” alternative to cigarettes. We now know that’s not true.

They cause less lung cancer but more mouth and throat cancer.

“Safer” is such a dangerous belief when it’s not based in research and fact, but is just a belief. Especially when it’s then stated as a fact to the vulnerable.

I’m afraid I’m a cynic. Mermaids promoting buying commercial binders with the “safer” tag line.I wonder what the payback was. I hope it’s fully investigated.

“Follow the money”

I've explained my reasoning many times Mollygo and I don't promote them

doodledog I don't read past assumptions about what I think or mean. How many times do I have to say that?

If you don't want me to bring it up, stop doing it... simple really pose it as a non personal question like

"VS what do you think about xyz" and I will answer

VS
You must not have the strength of conviction you need to be right to engage in discussion this way.
This is one of your typical arguments VS. If you don’t like an answer that mentions something you have said previously, you deny it by claiming it’s not what you meant, then accuse the poster of not engaging in discussion in the way that you like.
You support binders (unless you’ve changed your mind), without mentioning the word “manufactured”, including those once handed out indiscriminately by Lush. I think binders have the potential to cause irreversible harm, and that ALL binders and providers, especially the “official” ones should not be recommended as safe or safer and come with that warning. Whether or not girls will look up some even more dangerous practices on the internet is no excuse for recommending or supporting a dangerous practice as you you have appeared to do.

We cross posted, VS, and have said a lot of the same things.

Lathyrus

Too late for an apology I’m afraid. The pain you caused is the pain you caused.

That’s it really.

OK that's a shame but I won't waste time in discussion reading things about myself that aren't true and I don't expect anyone else to either.

We can all choose a different approach if we want people to respond to our words rather than react to them.

That's personal growth

Rosie51

Galaxy

One of the concerns about Mermaids is also the discussion on moderated chatlines about obtaining items from the internet (puberty blockers I think) so they seem to have covered all bases.

Membership to the Mermaids forums insisted on a private email address not known to the parents. If that doesn't sound the klaxons I don't know what will!

Asking children to talk without their parents having access to what is said is a massive red flag. What possible innocent reason can there be to do that?

VS, re the narration thing - I wouldn't have mentioned it, but you accused me of narrating your life. That confused me, as I have no way of knowing what you are doing, so couldn't narrate it if I wanted to, which I don't. As I say, you narrate it yourself, which is the only reason I mentioned it - God, this is exhausting.

I don't think that hormones in the water will make people change sex, as that is impossible, but I do wonder how healthy it is (and not just hormones, but other contaminants in the water supply).

I agree with Lathyrus that we don't know the harm that any form of binder can do. There have been hypotheses about underwired bras and deodorants causing cancer, and they are just two ideas that I can remember. They have been disproved, I think, but it made sense to avoid both whilst the jury was still out. Surely when we are looking at bidding breasts it is even more important to be careful. Not only that, but if a child has been told to keep binding secret from her parents, she is unlikely to confide in them if she has concerns or is in pain, so will be thrown back to the secret people on the Internet to give her advice.

Finally, I'm not sure what 'read past assumptions' means, but if it means that when you see something you assume to be an assumption you don't read further, then you are never going to know whether your assumptions were right, are you? The thing you assumed was as assumption may have been explained later in the post, and not be an assumption at all.

Lathyrus

Ok. No duct tape can’t be good. I can see that a nonadherent binder would be better than that. It could cause traumatic skin damage.

My point is that we don’t know at all that commercially promoted binders cause less long term damage than homemade ones.

We just don’t. So to promote or describe them as “a safer alternative” from a position of total ignorance is quite immoral.

We do know that all binders cause harm to developing breast tissue. We don’t know how much harm.

Even less harm can be dangerous. Suppose, for instance, the crushing of 50% or more of breast tissue leads to an inability to feed a baby later in life. It really wouldn’t be relevant that the commercial binder crushed 60% and the homemade 80%. The consequences would be the same.

We won’t know if breast binding causes breast cancer until several years ahead. It’s a concern. We can’t know how much “safer” a commercial binder is for a long while.

We just don’t know and yet the very strong message given is “here is a safer alternative.”

As I've said many times I don't promote breast binders and would not. If it somehow were my place I'd probably advise waiting until after therapy and then having surgery if they were absolutely sure...

Even then, I don't feel comfortable advising that.

I understand your concerns and I do think they are valid...

But you and I have never experienced gender dysphoria. We don't know or understand it. This thing that drives young people to harm themselves because of the parts they hate.

I've also never tried a breast binder made by people with medical knowledge or what it feels like.

But I would, if a child would bind either way using more harmful materiels, see that as a better option... that's just the truth.

As for going behind parents backs... I don't agree with that. But I also wonder and worry about parents who try to prevent their children from getting help with things they can't control. I wonder if accepting their child's needs would go some way towards their child not feeling that they need to take drastic action to at least look the gender they feel if they can't be validated for it.

I think it is so much more complex than binding is bad.

I don't have a solution for these young trans people and I wish I did.

Too late for an apology I’m afraid. The pain you caused is the pain you caused.

That’s it really.