Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

According to me what?

growstuff

*To be fair, that could be applied to pretty much any topic*

No, it couldn't. Most serious subjects have academic, peer-reviewed articles written about them. That article claims that there aren't that many about trans issues.

According to VS, there are academic articles on trans issues, too. In any event, whether that is the case or not, their absence or otherwise doesn't mean that the principles being discussed are not equally applicable to other subjects that boil down to differences of opinion. You could find as many articles on economics, history and human behaviour as you like, but people will still hold differing views on politics. Similarly with climate change - there are countless peer reviewed articles out there, but no real consensus.

Also, what 'that article claims' is neither here nor there, really.

Honestly I came into theses discussions very respectful and its taken far more than most would put up with to lose that respect

Some of the things said to me are beyond vile, especially when its followed me to other topics..

I would still give back respect if it were recieved I'm a very patient person

Yes it could be applied to any topic and any side, each side producing “articles” that support their POV.
It doesn’t change anything or move anything forward, but it looks sufficiently wordy to seem impressive.
And it still leaves females at the mercy of those ill-intentioned TIM, together with those who dismiss any harm by the “only a few” argument,
They are simultaneously making life difficult for transpeople who want none of that.

To be fair, that could be applied to pretty much any topic

No, it couldn't. Most serious subjects have academic, peer-reviewed articles written about them. That article claims that there aren't that many about trans issues.

Spot on article or aeiricle lol

To be fair, that could be applied to pretty much any topic, and can also be used to describe either 'side'. It describes SM communication pretty well, but is not peculiar to threads about trans issues.

A while ago, I started to pick up on this every time there was an attempt to use these techniques against me, but it got too onerous as it happened all the time. It drove people away from the threads, and didn't move the debate on at all. I was boring myself in the end, and now only pick up on the more egregious examples.

TBH, though, there is no longer any debate as it has all been said, and people are entrenched. Nothing that has been said on any of these threads has convinced me that self-id is anything other than detrimental to women's rights, and I can't imagine that it ever will. I'm sure the same applies in reverse, too.

aeiricle? (Where did that come from?)

I meant "article".

I found one open source aericle on the topic here:
journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244020927029

There’s a whole section on the sources arguing against trans inclusion. I’ve copied and pasted some of it below. Much of it isn’t coming from “traditional” academic papers, but social media.

Doing Philosophy and Debating Policy in the Age of Social Media and Digital Platforms

“The case against trans inclusion in the United Kingdom, as I indicated, has been presented primarily through social media and blog-type or journalistic online platforms 10 SAGE Open lacking the traditional prepublication checks of academic peer review. I think these media of presentation are also partly to blame for the shortcomings in gender-critical arguments. …”
“First, they enable new manipulative communication practices, such as flaming and trolling. The popular support base of gender-critical academics makes ample use of these, though gender-critical scholars are also at the receiving end. Rather than using the quasi-spoken features of social media and allied platforms with a view to genuinely advancing understanding, online activists may exploit these features for strategic aims. Common techniques include drowning a post or blog with irrelevant comments; exposing the blogger to ridicule; deflecting attention from the point she made; forcing her to address spurious objections; pretextually professing a failure to under stand, demanding endless further explanations; and so on. …”
“In traditional academic communicative practice, one’s recognition as an expert is supposed to follow from the credit that accrues to one as a result of the soundness of one’s research methods and arguments, judged through peer review processes. But “in the era of social media there are now many different ways that a scientist can build their pub lic profile; the publication of high-quality scientific papers being just one” (Hall, 2014). Veletsianos and Kimmons (2016) have found, by examining a large data set of education scholars’ participation on Twitter, that being widely followed on social media is impacted by many factors that may have little to do with the quality of scholarly work . . . and . . . that participation and popularity may be impacted by a number of additional factors unrelated to scholarly merit (e.g., wit, controversy, longevity; p. 6).”
“Blogs and social media also distort genuine communicative action by facilitating venting. This is partly because they distance interlocutors in a way that lowers benign face-to face inhibitions. This is a well-recognized online phenomenon (Suler, 2004). While the prospect and practice of peer-review processes tend to reduce (though they might not eliminate) ad-hominem attacks, unproductively antagonistic posturing, and the poor argumentation that comes with them, similar checks are not in place in the context of nonacademic digital fora. In the debate on trans inclusion, this has some times resulted in a kind of communication that is a far cry from the dialogic, respectful attitude that Habermasian communicative action, let alone empathy-centered feminist forms of communicative ethics, calls for …”
“In sum, the use of social media (and other digital plat forms, to the extent that they share some of the same attri butes) poses a number of concerns in respect of their ability to facilitate genuine communicative action, particularly when compared with traditional academic publication out lets. This being the case, the enthusiasm with which many gender-critical voices have embraced these media may well be implicated in the problems with their arguments against trans inclusion; likewise, it is unclear that engaging gender critical voices on that terrain has been the most productive move on the part of those of us who advocate for trans inclusion. …”

See

VioletSky

Meh

I've had enough context to know

Yeah, self-reflection is a wonderful thing. You do you, eh?

The petition has over 25,000 signatures now.

Meh

I've had enough context to know

You know full well I am a teaching assistant and do not have any of those qualifications, you've asked me before. I also do not pretend to have the intelligence needed to understand every word of a study and don't pretend to.

I do however have enough intelligence to:

1. Ask people who are qualified to help my understanding

2. Recognise sly behaviour

I was not suggesting that you don't have the intelligence to understand anything, and didn't mention qualifications. You said something about people not bothering to read the academic articles that you read, and I wondered what they were, partly as Wikipedia is not an academic source, and partly because as I said, I have found reading peer reviewed articles about topics outside of my subject area to be difficult. I am interested to know which discipline academic research into trans issues comes under, as there are various possibilities. Also, they are tricky to access, so if you knew of an easily available source it would be good to know what it was, so that the people you are accusing of not being as up to date as you are could read them.

1. I was doing exactly what you suggest - asking you about the articles to help my own understanding of what they are and where to find them. Your suggestion of going to intersectional feminist meetings to read them doesn't really work for me though. Do people really read academic articles at meetings? I've never been to a feminist meeting where they even had a library, but they were old school 'exclusionist' feminists who met upstairs in a pub, so that might explain it. I'll pass on your suggestion of finding an IF meeting near me though - it doesn't sound like my idea of fun.

2. I have no doubt whatsoever that you recognise sly behaviour, but you didn't see any from me. Either you read something into my post that was not there, or you are twisting my words.

I took that to mean Doodledog was asking which of those three disciplines the studies you've seen came under, not that you were claiming qualification in any of those fields. I believe you're taking offence because you haven't read her post correctly. If I'm correct Doodledog would like an indication where you've seen the actual studies, as they would be of interest to many of us. She can access academic journals so could probably find them with your help. I know one or maybe two people that might be able to access the relevant journal if you can tell us which discipline they've been published under.

VS
I do however have enough intelligence to:

2. Recognise sly behaviour. Really?

Self reflection is a wonderful thing! 🤣🤣🤣

Doodledog

*VS*, as a matter of interest, where have you found access to the studies you mention? I ask as most of what is in the public domain is likely to be reports of the findings of studies, and the studies themselves only available to those with a subscription to academic journals, which are very expensive. If there is a way for everyone to access them it would be good if you could post it, to open it up for all.

I do have access to academic journals, but as with most research they are difficult to understand without a thorough grounding in the topic. Were yours psychology, biology or sociology? I'll have another look later if you let me know.

You know full well I am a teaching assistant and do not have any of those qualifications, you've asked me before. I also do not pretend to have the intelligence needed to understand every word of a study and don't pretend to.

I do however have enough intelligence to:

1. Ask people who are qualified to help my understanding

2. Recognise sly behaviour

VioletSky

Doodledog

There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you

I didn't do anything of the kind. Please stop twisting my words.

Self reflection is a wonderful thing

So you keep saying. Reflect as much as you like, but don't twist my words.

if gender is a social construct then it can be socially deconstructed. which I can only interpret as meaning it does not exist in reality. Therefore in reality there is no such thing as a transgender woman because in declaring self to be a transgender woman a person is by default declaring their manhood

Doodledog

*There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you*

I didn't do anything of the kind. Please stop twisting my words.

Self reflection is a wonderful thing

There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you

I didn't do anything of the kind. Please stop twisting my words.

Fleurpepper

I can assure you that you will never ever know if my niece shares a toilet, or even a hospital room or ward with you. Never, ever. Neither will most nurses, nor doctors. the job was very well done. It would take a very intimate examination to find out.

Ok, so are you suggesting that if people did know that your niece is trans it would make a difference? It is not about 'passing' - it is about being a woman. There are those who flaunt their masculinity but still insist that they feel like women so have to be treated as such. Other transwomen are not particularly stereotypically feminine and don't want to be - where would you draw the line?

Personally, FWIW, I think that whereas surgically transitioned transwomen are still transwomen, there should be a difference made between them and male-bodied ones. That would put enormous obstacles in the path of those who pretend to be women to get what they want, and would mean that people like your niece could carry on as they are doing.

And yes, I know that there are huge waiting lists for treatment, just as there are for pretty much all operations. That doesn't alter the fact that IMO male bodied people should not be in women's spaces, and it is not a problem that I should be expected to solve.

No they arent fleur but that's an answer to one of the issues, gender neutral, plus spaces for those who want single sex spaces.

Doodledog

*You may join an intersectional feminist group where there are women with that eduction and access if you choose to. Doing so without any respect of the education and intelligence of other women won't help you much*

Eh? I'm not disrespecting anyone. I was asking how to find the studies, as they will span a range of disciplines, and saying that academic studies I have read outside of my own subject area have not been easy to understand. That is respecting the education and intelligence of the authors, not the other way round!

There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you

You may join an intersectional feminist group where there are women with that eduction and access if you choose to. Doing so without any respect of the education and intelligence of other women won't help you much

Eh? I'm not disrespecting anyone. I was asking how to find the studies, as they will span a range of disciplines, and saying that academic studies I have read outside of my own subject area have not been easy to understand. That is respecting the education and intelligence of the authors, not the other way round!