Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

So let's invite all males in Hetty?
Let's make life as unsafe as possible for girls and women?
Why would you think that was all right?

grannydarkhair, yes, he's just a writer - obviously. What interested me was the different examples of body, brain and genitalia being of different sexes.

Hugshelp, this is the same old thing, rehashed (yet again) about 'safe spaces' for women - and nothing has changed. They never existed, nobody checked.

Hetty58

FarNorth, and it's a huge problem for GN folk because?

It's a problem for the women in prisons who are getting raped.
It's a problem for rape victims who cannot find refuge in single-sex spaces.
it's a problem for women traumatised by rape and sexual assault who cannot get intimate medical care from someone of the same sex.
It's a problem for every women who loses a place in work, education, or other aspects of life to a man who self IDs.
It's a problem for every woman injured by having to compete in contact sports against men who ID as women.
It's a problem for women whose own identity rests upon their biology to be forced to embrace an ideology that causes them painful emotional dissonance.
It's a problem for women who need personal care on a daily basis who do not wish that to be at the hands of a biological male.
It's a problem for homosexuals who are told that same-sex attraction is transphobic.
It's a problem for transmen and transwomen who are told that the painful transitions they went through is irrelevant.
It's a problem for safeguarding with respect to children when they have to share changing rooms and sleeping quarters with people, including adults, of the opposite sex.
It's a problem because if any man can self-ID for any reason then predatory males will be, and already are, taking advantage of this.

But I'm sure all the people who say self ID is fine, know this, and just think that the people hurt by this don't matter.

Hetty58 Joshua Kenton, the author of the article you quoted, is an expert? in financial and investing matters. He writes blog pieces about lots of different subjects, e.g. religion, philosophy, the surrogate birth of his two children. He has no in-depth knowledge of human biology, as, imo, is evident from that piece. Wouldn’t you rather believe someone like Professor Winston than a non-expert on this matter? I know I would and do.

Hetty58

FarNorth, and it's a huge problem for GN folk because?

Why is the fact of only two immutable sexes such a problem to science deniers?

Hetty58 Yes it really is that simple. There are not six sexes, that is a fact. Turner syndrome only occurs in females, Klinefelter syndrome only occurs in males, xyy only occurs in males, xxxy only occurs in males. So those along with the normal xx and xy of females and males covers his "six common biological sexes" I really cannot recommend Professor Robert Winston, a leading world expert on sex and fertility, enough who will tell you there are absolutely two sexes and it is impossible to change from one to the other.
If you are so certain there are more than two sexes can you link to where their gametes have been identified, as we know males produce small motile gametes (sperm) and females produce large immotile gametes (ova). That some people do not have healthy functioning reproductive systems does not invalidate the science. Just as someone being born with one or both eyes blind does not mean that humans aren't a species with two seeing eyes. Nature has malfunctions, but the binary of sex is ever present.

FarNorth, and it's a huge problem for GN folk because?

Hetty58 the Differences in Sexual Development that some people have are always associated with a female or male sex.

The very small minority of people with DSDs are not the ones seeking to be recognised as the opposite sex.

Rosie51, but it's not that simple, is it (although people on GN would like it to be)?

www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

Sometimes (about 1 in 1000) babies are born with 'ambiguous' genitalia, traditionally brought up as female. this statement is so out of date. We have DNA testing and a baby whose genitalia prevented its sex being reliably observed would be tested to see to which of the two sexes it belonged.

Hetty58 have you read any posts where it says people may not self identify their gender? If you read the posts, you will find the objection is not to whether somebody calls themselves a different gender from their sex, but what they do with that claim.
If you are of the opinion that males cheating in female sport is okay for example, you will find like-minded people on these threads. If on the other hand, you think that using your claim to a gender for harmful purposes is not okay, then you will equally find like-minded people on these threads.
If you don’t want to read the posts, from either group, then move on.

Just curious, where did you get that info from hetty58?

I find the whole argument (and weird obsession on GN) quite puzzling. We are all humans, just people. Unless you intend to inspect naked bodies - you have to accept that there are men who look like women and women who look like men amongst us. They already have the right to self identify their gender.

Get used to it, get over it - and move on.

Sometimes (about 1 in 1000) babies are born with 'ambiguous' genitalia, traditionally brought up as female. How would your petition deal with them?

No - and why?

I’ve just read that the Final of Brain of Britain was the first time all the finalists were female. However in fact there were 3 female and one transwoman. The BBC called it an ‘all women final’.

It’s fine having transwomen in the Final but at least the BBC should be honest about the contestants.

FarNorth
If they pass really well, of course, I'd never know
Would those who go to so much effort to fit in, and conceal their maleness be likely
•to use their disguise to be upskirting perverts,
•to display their penis in female spaces such as changing rooms,
.•or use their access to female spaces such as hospitals, prisons or mental wards as an opportunity to rape females or to shout their right to be in female spaces because today, they’re a woman ?

It’s unlikely, and prior to the actions of those who would do that, many TW may well have been accessing female spaces meaning no harm and going undetected.

But the actions of those TW who would or have done unacceptable actions, together with the shouts from people who say “You can’t tell the difference” have made it essential to keep female spaces for females.

If you are male and you previously accessed female spaces, unnoticed then you are the trans who will suffer most from the TW who have done actions like those I mentioned in the first paragraph because they have made life more difficult for you.

If you read Jan Morris’s autobiography, you’ll find that she acknowledged and always knew that she was not a ‘real’ woman.

I'm not happy with any transwomen being in females' places, especially as numbers increase.
If they pass really well, of course, I'd never know they were there but not all do.
And absolutely all of them are still male.

Yes, varian, I've read about Jan Morris and there was a recent TV documentary about her. She was very brave, as pioneers have to be.

I am happy that more people can live in whatever way they choose, but when men such as the one in grannydarkhair's link can insist that they are women, we are in trouble, as there is then no safe space for women and girls to go, and the few rights we have that differ from men have vanished.

People who express concern about this are not saying that they wish ill on people like Jan Morris, but that they want to retain single sex status, so that people can't opt in and out of 'womanhood' based on 'feeling like a woman'. We just want to have the concept of being a woman protected - is that such a big ask?

Our generation grew up with only one model of a couple - a (natural born) man and a (natural born) woman.

I am glad to be part of one of these couples because it makes life a lot less complicated.

However, over the years we have come to recognise other types of couples - such as same sex couples.

More recently the question of transgender people (who always existed but pretty much under the radar) is coming to the fore.

I remember, in the 1960s, reading the story of the writer Jan Morriss, who, as James Mrriss had been the Times correspondant who first reportecd the British conquest of Everest on the eve of the coronation.

He had married Elizabeth in the 1940s and fathered five children but in 1964 transitioned to become a woman.

What a remarkable person. She continued to live with Elizabeth, the mother of his children, and although they had to divorce when James became Jan, they were able to remarry when same sex marriage became legal.

Smileless2012

In a nutshell grannydarkhair and how can anyone believe this is acceptable?.

It’s evidently acceptable
•for those whom it does not affect,

•for those who consider themselves ‘Joke’ (yes I know it’s ‘Woke’ but because they can’t see it also means their discrimination against females, they’re more of a Bernard Manning sort of joke.)

•for those who still, unbelievably, consider the rights of males override those of females

• for those who do not understand or will not understand the harm done to the ordinary, peaceful, non-cheating, non-threatening trans by those trans and fans who caused, and are still causing problems.

In a nutshell grannydarkhair and how can anyone believe this is acceptable?.

That is a perfect example of what we've all been saying grannydarkhair. A picture paints a thousand words.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-735096-screenshot-20221119-084701.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-320415-screenshot-20221117-171250.png

Here's transwoman Debbie Hayton replying to that tweet and making the same point that women are making.
Is DH bigoted against trans people? Obviously not, and neither are others who think this is madness.

Also, here's a recent photo of violent sex-offender 'transwoman' Katie Dolatowski. He's a big guy.
He has already attacked two young girls in toilets.

Thanks for the link grannydarkhair. Anyone who thinks this will help trans . . . ?