Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

The petition is now over 30,700 and waiting for a government response because of reaching 1,000, 6 days ago.

Doodledog

I know, Molly. I was backing you up

Thank you.

I know, Molly. I was backing you up

I know DD. I was really asking FP because she says
“ their genuine fears of being attacked by men, and probably much more so than other women”
Whilst ignoring the attacks and harassment suffered by females by males as if her family and friends are more important than any other females.
If they would be mistaken for males /TW then that does not match what she has been saying, so I am puzzled.

They wouldn't. The sort of man who would beat up a TW would be just as likely to attack a woman. That is why we have segregated loos, for goodness sake.

Taking away somewhere that a woman can go to shake off a persistent boyfriend, or to phone a taxi is a massively retrograde step, and whether your friends or their friends are dangerous or not, the principle is the same. Male bodied people should not be in female spaces.

But why would they be more likely to ge attacked in GN toilets than women?

Ys, I do understand.

Dragging family members into this discussion? Well, 1 niece and 3 friends. This is totally normal- we all shape our opinions and views partly on things we have experienced ourselves, or those close to us. They are the reason I feel as I do about the issues because of the discussions I have had with them and their genuine fears of being attacked by men, and probably much more so than other women.

The matter is complex, but FP do you now understand better why females are so concerned about any decision that says males are allowed into female toilets or other safe spaces etc, etc?

I’m not quite sure why you are dragging your family members into their discussion.
If they are so evidently not perceived as ‘male’ they have probably doing what other similar trans have been doing for years and could carry on doing it unnoticed rather than arguing that “some males” should be allowed in female safe spaces, which would be impossible to police.

The actions of some TW who have no intention of doing anything other than self ID’ing and every intention of making life difficult for females have also made life difficult for trans such as you mention.

However, all the ranting on here seems to be once again casting blame on females and saying that they should stop insisting on places free from males.

No need to shout, FP. I am also discussing.

Can't you see that by saying that TW should be allowed in women's spaces you are basically saying that women have to put up with that unless or until they come up with a better idea? The trans lobby insist that TWAW, and don't see the need for them to do anything other than use women's loos, so won't be interested (their misogyny would prevent any interest in women's discomfort anyway), and men are losing absolutely nothing by not having TW in their spaces, which are continuing to be unaffected.

It is a DISCUSSION

I never said that 'women should solve the problem' - have I?

And yes, I can see the argument in your last paragraph. And I have said that saying that only those who have gone through hormonal and surgical transition would or should be accepted- because it would increase the number of those who wish to do so.

I am very 'happy' to say I do not have solutions- but that the issues are far more complex than some think- and explain why I will not sign the petition. And that said petition will probably do more harm than good, and put very vulnerable trans women in danger, in so many ways. That is all.

But I do believe that transgender people who are now female in all apart than gametes, which are totally unseen- are much more at risk if forced to use male toilets, than any other group.

Why do you think that women should solve that problem, or at least have transpeople in our spaces until it is solved, rather than men, or transwomen themselves?

There would be howls of protest, and cries of 'how will you police it?' of anyone in power suggested that there should be differential treatment for transitioned and untransitioned transpeople, so whereas some women (not all, though) would make an exception for the surgically transitioned, opposition would come from the trans lobby too.

Lathyrus

Fleurpepper

''If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.''

they do NOT have a penis - please!

You are asking them to take a huge risk of being verbally, or physically attacked, raped even- but thos who do have one! And are hell bent on making sure they know!

Do you mean toilets and changing rooms? Personally I agree with Doodledog that I would not object to those who have fully transitioned being in female spaces. I can see that male spaces would be totally inappropriate for them.

Can you see why females feel unsafe when those who have fully male bodies are insisting on access to female safe spaces?

Yes, of course.

But I do believe that transgender people who are now female in all apart than gametes, which are totally unseen- are much more at risk if forced to use male toilets, than any other group.

FleurPepper
Going to Gender Neutral toilets, where available, could also make them targets of violence.

Thank you for that clear explanation of why females need to keep female only toilets rather than GN toilets.

I sympathise with your friends’ predicament, but it’s sad that female only toilets are rejected for females and we are told that GN toilets would be OK, where you’re saying that TW whom you are convinced would be perceived as female would not be safe in GN toilets.
Why do you feel that would be the case?

Smileless2012

I think one of Fleur's friends hasn't fully transitioned but 2 and her niece have Doodledog. I also agree that a fully transitioned trans woman should be able to use women's facilities, but apart from relying on their honesty, don't know how that could be regulated.

Your analogies in your post @ 16.56 explain the dilemma very well Lathyrus.

Yes- thank you.

Thanks for the link to that article Glorianny.

I think one of Fleur's friends hasn't fully transitioned but 2 and her niece have Doodledog. I also agree that a fully transitioned trans woman should be able to use women's facilities, but apart from relying on their honesty, don't know how that could be regulated.

Your analogies in your post @ 16.56 explain the dilemma very well Lathyrus.

Going to Gender Neutral toilets, where available, could also make them targets of violence. Gender neutral toilets aren't designated for transpeople, they're for anyone male or female to use, so why would that make your friends more at risk than anyone else using them? Plenty on these threads have said they have no problem with them and are happy to use them. Personally I'm happier with single sex toilets, and for some people their religious beliefs make it a must.

Fionne Orlander is a transwoman who passes very easily but uses male toilets because that is the sex-applicable one.

Also, as women we train ourselves to be aware of danger. We do it every time we walk down a dark street, or get into a taxi. Women meeting men for the first time on blind dates are advised to go somewhere well-populated, to have a codeword or a number to call, and so on. Children are taught to go to women not to men if they feel they are in danger. Not because all men are a threat, but because more men are likely to be a threat than are women. That's how Myra Hyndley lured the children to their deaths.

Telling women and girls that when they see a man in the Ladies they now have to over-ride the instincts they have built up to protect themselves is, IMO, wrong.

Fleurpepper

''If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.''

they do NOT have a penis - please!

You are asking them to take a huge risk of being verbally, or physically attacked, raped even- but thos who do have one! And are hell bent on making sure they know!

Do you mean toilets and changing rooms? Personally I agree with Doodledog that I would not object to those who have fully transitioned being in female spaces. I can see that male spaces would be totally inappropriate for them.

Can you see why females feel unsafe when those who have fully male bodies are insisting on access to female safe spaces?

Fleurpepper

Oh dear- but they are NOT male-bodied anymore- THAT is the point. Not male minded, not male hearted, not male souled

I thought your niece had transitioned surgically but your friends have not?

I'f that's wrong, the fact still remains - IMO surgically transitioned transwomen should be allowed to use the Ladies, but not this with an intact penis.

Fleurpepper

Oh dear- but they are NOT male-bodied anymore- THAT is the point. Not male minded, not male hearted, not male souled

In that case Fleur, if they are not male bodied much of the=fear would be removed.

But many trans still retain their male bodies. Can you understand why females might be fearful of male bodied people that insist on access to female spaces?

''If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.''

they do NOT have a penis - please!

You are asking them to take a huge risk of being verbally, or physically attacked, raped even- but thos who do have one! And are hell bent on making sure they know!

If you have been stabbed by someone with a knife, you would be afraid of someone that came into your space carrying a knife.

If you have been badly bitten by a dog as I have, I’m afraid I am afraid of all dogs that come to close into my space

If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.

The dog, the knife carrier, the person with a penis may all have innocent intentions. You can’t tell. You only know that it might happen because it already has.

You would hope that those who want to live as women would be able to identify and understand this fear. It’s not about ‘automatic’ male threat. It’s about knowledge and experience of what does happen to females.

Oh dear- but they are NOT male-bodied anymore- THAT is the point. Not male minded, not male hearted, not male souled