Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

Right. I get all of that. But what people consider themselves to be and what they are are not necessarily the same thing. I also understand people not wanting to use male loos if they are clearly trans, but the difference is that I don't see that as a women's issue. It is for men or tranwomen to solve, and simply telling women to find a way around it or live with it is not remotely satisfactory.

A male-bodied person should not be in a women's space, as they are not women, whatever they perceive themselves to be.

Thank you for that last paragraph.

However ''The vast majority of men know this and would not dream of imposing themselves - not because they are a threat, but because they know that many women would perceive them as such if they rock up in a changing room, or anywhere where women might be vulnerable.''

they no longer consider themselves to be male, and have committed to full transition. The point is, 1 of them could go anywhere because she is 100% convincing as a female- and she does go into female places, because that is where she belongs, as far as she is concerned, and her friends and family. The other two do too, because they just would not be safe going into 'male' toilets and changing rooms. THEY would be at huge risk. Of course, there are gender neutral toilets in some places, but not in the vast majority. Going to Gender Neutral toilets, where available, could also make them targets of violence.

Are you really not understanding the numerous posts that have pointed out that your friends are not being discussed as an automatic threat.*FP*?

What people are saying is that as long as men are allowed into women's spaces, there is a threat to women. The vast majority of men know this and would not dream of imposing themselves - not because they are a threat, but because they know that many women would perceive them as such if they rock up in a changing room, or anywhere where women might be vulnerable. With self-id, anyone who says they are female can go anywhere, which includes those who are no threat at all, as well as those with nefarious intent. The fact that some transpeople can pass unnoticed does not mean that they have more right to be there than those with stubble and hairy hands.

Personally, I would make an exception for people who have shown a commitment to their trans status by surgically transitioning. I am aware that there are those who disagree, but FWIW, that is my opinion. I also understand the 'policing' issues, but as I keep saying, when the trans lobby comes up with a solution, I would be very willing to hear it.

Fleurpepper

This weekend, I met 2 of my trans friends. We had a nice chat, and all the time I was thinking about comments on this thread, and how sad that those 2 lovely people are being talked about as here, as an 'automatic' male threat to the whole female population. So sad.

The people who are making them an automatic male threat are not posters on here, but are those TW who cause the trouble and the TRA who support them.
No one has ever, to my knowledge said on GN that they view all trans as a threat.

If you read any posts about trans issues carefully, the majority of posters on here don’t see all trans as a threat, but they do want something done to protect females and stop the damage to TW who you were meeting, who presumably don’t want either to broadcast the fact that they are TW, or to override female rights to safe spaces, treatment by females when requested, or opportunity to win in competitions without being faced by cheating males.

www.discovermagazine.com/health/skeletal-studies-show-sex-like-gender-exists-along-a-spectrum

This is an interesting article about the problems sexing skeletons, the historical inaccuracies and the latest methods which now classify some as "indetermined "https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/skeletal-studies-show-sex-like-gender-exists-along-a-spectrum

Neither your trans friends, your niece or any other trans is being or has been talked about on here as an "automatic male threat to the whole female population" Fleur.

While I appreciate your closeness too and fondness of your niece and trans friends, what you are consistently accusing other posters of doing, is not the case.

No, not a lack of understanding as if that were the case she'd have said so to her friend and, not shares what are IMO her understandable concerns on here.

You may not agree with her but shocking!!!

This weekend, I met 2 of my trans friends. We had a nice chat, and all the time I was thinking about comments on this thread, and how sad that those 2 lovely people are being talked about as here, as an 'automatic' male threat to the whole female population. So sad.

Smileless2012

No GagaJo not excuses just facts.

Stating that a friend is doing the wrong thing with their body is arrogant. No two ways about it.

No wonder she hasn't told him. Her lack of understanding of who he is on a very deep, personal level is shocking.

Rosie51 : 'Fleurpepper if your niece went through a male puberty then she most definitely does have a male skeleton, even if that is a 'petite' one. The angle of the pubic arch will be smaller than that of a female skeleton, it's just a fact of nature. Your nephew, before transition to your niece might well have been a very petite male, but would still have had the proportions within the male scale. You really shouldn't get so offended'

I am not offended at all. What I am saying, is that you would never guess, and that it really makes no difference. Why does it make a big difference, to you?

No GagaJo not excuses just facts.

🙄🙄🙄 Excuses.

Onward is expressing her thoughts about a friend who she's clearly very fond of GagaJo and her fears for their future health and well being.

Her views haven't been posted from the stance of a GC feminist, but from the point of view of a good and concerned friend.

Yup. It’s quite hard to find if you Google because the first five pages or so will come up LGBTQ+ erasure. By creating lots of articles in that form the Gay Erasure campaign run by Transactvists is well masked.

The LGB Alliance, much condemned by trans supporters, was formed to first of all make the point that LGB is quite different from TQ+, but secondly to highlight and resist the propaganda of Gay Erasure and the harassment that LGB has received from some trans, especially those LGB who want to separate themselves from the LGBTQ+ label.

GagaJo , Onward has already said that she would never comment to her friend but is expressing her opinion here.
People express opinions about those in their lives all the time, on Gransnet.

Is that really what they say? After all the problems gay people have had, they’re now being told that they’re still wrong.😱

Gosh, it’s a bit like the Gay Erasure campaign isn’t it?

You know, there’s no such thing as homosexual, you really should transition.

Wow. Just wow.

OnwardandUpward
Having seen and heard the suffering , trauma and difficult risks my friend is going through I don't see his Trans life as a good option for him. I feel that perhaps body positive counselling to accept oneself would be better than body changes.

The arrogance of saying I don't see his Trans life as a good option for him about someone else's life choices.

Says it all about the gender critical really. Don't make your own choice, let us make it for you.

That's excellent news Meryl.

You're on shaky ground mentioning HRT on Gransnet Onward
I haven't used it myself, and I'm not the fragile wreck that some think is inevitable without it, but many people feel it is a huge help to them.
I agree with you about Big Pharma in general, tho, and unscrupulous individuals such as Dr Gallagher.

The whole beauty industry and plastic surgeons as a whole thrive on our insecurities.

@FarNorth I had a look at that surgeon. Also noted that as part of their "Mommy fix" for new Mums they don't just offer a tummy tuck and boob re- plumping, but also surgery down below to "beautify". I for one am a bit surprised. This surgeon seems to want a slice of all the pies. I'm sure that trading off other peoples insecurities must be profitable.

I hear so much about self love and body positivity, but these plastic surgeons are not pushing that because this is making them rich.

Just to be clear, I'm equally suspicious of women being encouraged to go on HRT as its probably got risks for biological women as well as trans people. Sometimes it just feels like Big Pharma want us all on drugs.

FarNorth
Can we hope that there’s a glimmer of sanity.
I love this article: hit them where it hurts, in their pockets.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11396425/Cambridge-donors-PULL-funding-amid-free-speech-row-college-head-boycotted-gender-ideology-talk.html

Seen on twitter -

"If a predator were to design their dream job it would include the ability to erase past evidence of predatory behaviour, a job that grants them access to their target group with a label that identifies them as both special and caring."

And -

"Women and girls having female carers doesn't harm trans people in any way.
If it's too upsetting for transwomen to admit to being male - don't try to work as a carer."

Here is Dr Sibh Gallagher, mentioned above, advertising herself on tiktok and Instagram.

www.instagram.com/p/CgmUxWLjpFM/

She has lots of photos of patients on her Instagram, often with happy looking family members.

That is what I was thinking too, Onward, as I read your post - the 'solution' has created more problems and your friend might have got on better if it hadn't been available.