Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

Fleurpepper

We should protect all people from bad, malevolent people- of any sex. And we should be protecting trans people too, because they are much more victims of violence and abuse than most.

I’m sorry Fleur but I don’t know if that is true. I accept it is your concern but we don’t, to my knowledge, have the range of research or statistics to back that up.

Neither do we know if people identifying as trans are more or less likely to commit abuse. Any research into that at the=moment has been rendered invalid by recording crimes by trans persons as male or female crimes.

I really don’t think anyone has said anything like “who cares if they are exposed to bullying - or worse”.

All of this needs investigation and preventative actions put in place so that everyone can be treated fairly, so that everyone can live without fear.

It’s a worry to me that there is a resistance to this happening.

I suspect this is once again a question of the inadequacies of the system. Previous identities should be revealed to the DBS not the person doing the check.
The law requires that applicants disclose all previous names and addresses to the DBS so that they can process an application correctly, and return accurate results. The DBS have a process to allow applicants to disclose previous gender/name information to the DBS only. This information does not need to be revealed on the DBS application form or to a potential employer. This is known as the ‘Sensitive Applications Process
We must all know how lengthy DBS processes can be. Perhaps that's why she was able to stay in the refuge for so long.

Or you know dont allow males in female spaces as permitted by law.

Lathyrus

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?

Glorianny

Reading the article this person was 18 when he assaulted a child and had filmed children in toilets previously. The nature of the attack was strange. He was obviously someone who needed help, but was obviously very capable of lies and deceit. Would classifying him as male have helped? Well it would undoubtedly have kept him out the refuge, but then he would have been able to hide somewhere else. At least the refuge were able to have him arrested.

I think being able to totally change his identity so that checks could not be made was a factor in enabling him to enter the Refuge.

All places where vulnerable women and children are should be able to run valid checks on who has access to them.

In schools volunteers are advanced DSB checked. But if someone can opt to be legally given for a totally new identity it makes nonsense sense of the whole system.

What you believe is neither here or there I am afraid FP, we dont base legislation on that. Men and women commit crimes at different rates and on the whole commit different types of crime.

Using the correct description of his sex would also ensure that his victims arent made to doubt the reality of their experience. Something which I think is inflicting further abuse of them.

It's in the 2010 equality act, you can read it on the gov.uk website

OK, some of you will say 'ah but they have chosen to be trans- so tough. Who cares if they are exposed to bullying or worse!'

Excuse me! To which 'some of us' are you referring with that comment? I haven't heard or seen anything on this thread (or any other for that matter) which suggests that anyone would say anything of the kind. Perhaps you could be more specific for avoidance of doubt?

There are laws already in place for people who have had gender reassignment surgery so that they aren't discriminated against in the workplace.

We should protect all people from bad, malevolent people- of any sex. And we should be protecting trans people too, because they are much more victims of violence and abuse than most.

Reading the article this person was 18 when he assaulted a child and had filmed children in toilets previously. The nature of the attack was strange. He was obviously someone who needed help, but was obviously very capable of lies and deceit. Would classifying him as male have helped? Well it would undoubtedly have kept him out the refuge, but then he would have been able to hide somewhere else. At least the refuge were able to have him arrested.

Galaxy

I know lots of transwomen fleur. They would not dream of using single sex spaces. They respect womens boundaries.

To be honest, I am surprised here. Are you saying they use men's toilets, and do not encounter abuse there, or even violence and worse? The fact there are cubicles where they can sit to pee, is NOT the issue here.

In many places, as said, Unis and some work places, gender neutral toilets are available. In the vast majority of places, in rural areas, in pubs and most restaurants, etc, etc. They are NOT available. And even when there are such toilets, just the fact of using them points to those people and open them to abuse and possible violence.

Yes, we need to find solutions. But pretending that we cans just sign a petition, and jump on easy answers, which just put another group at risk, is not the way forwards. OK, some of you will say 'ah but they have chosen to be trans- so tough. Who cares if they are exposed to bullying or worse!'. Is that really the way?

We look at things from different angles. I totally get the other of a disabled woman, or an elderly person with dementia, who is truly concerned she may be subject to male violence or abuse when in care. Totally. And yet, I do believe that transwomen are probably less likely to abuse, or no more likely at least. There are some nasty people in care- some of them are women.

I would have never thought about it unless I had met some amazing transwomen in the recent past. 3 who have gone through full conversion, and totally live as women, 1 of whom you would never ever guess. And another for whom it was too late to do so, in her 60s, and decided not to go through hormonal and physical transformation. I talk to them and their daily encounters with bullying, verbal violence and more- and the fact they would never dare go into a man's toilet, for fear of being attacked, verbally or worse. One of them has been treatened with rape on multiple occasions, with such comments as 'I'll show you what's what and worse.' They opened my eyes, and heart, to their plight.

One of them is a carer and assistant nurse, and no-one knows she was born a male. Her name and papers register her as a woman, she totally looks like a woman, she is married to a man and is called Mrs- why should she have to tell people of her past history? Whom does that help?

We really need to admit there are problems and seek ways to solve them rather than try to pretend they don’t exist. When the evidence of multiple problems is increasing day by day

Quite

Galaxy

I understand the point that you are making Lathyrus and I agree but I think its also important to remember that there is a child victim here and the impact this may have on the child by pretending this person is a woman.

Oh yes, I wouldn’t deny that at all.

It’s difficult to raise all the concerns that need to be addressed.

Hopefully the all party committee will utterly dismiss the “No debate” agenda.

We really need to admit there are problems and seek ways to solve them rather than try to pretend they don’t exist. When the evidence of multiple problems is increasing day by day.

I understand the point that you are making Lathyrus and I agree but I think its also important to remember that there is a child victim here and the impact this may have on the child by pretending this person is a woman.

Yes it does need to be addressed Lathyrus. It's very worrying to know that by having a new ID, past offences can't be flagged up because they happened under the previous one.

A case like this will quite rightly make vulnerable women who are seeking a place of safety in a refuge, wonder if they will be a safe as they expect and hope to be.

The ID doesnt change the fact that this is a man.

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

Glorianny

Lathyrus

We don’t know that any abuse took place and shouldnt speculate as it is under investigation.

My point was that it was so easy for her to gain access to what should have been a safe place for women and children.

It was the children who were uppermost in my mind and how it has shaken confidence in Refuges being safe places.

My questions were how can we ensure they are safe places for women and children

and

Where can abused families go if Refuges are no longer felt to be safe.

One single case does not make a place unsafe. Sometimes mistakes happen it's unfortunate, and their assessment procedures need looking at. However it is incredibly difficult to investigate when someone is intent on deception.

I agree one incident doesn’t make a place unsafe. But it does make a place feel unsafe to those who already know how unsafe life can be.

If families have lost confidence then they won’t access the refuge. Refuges are places where emotions run high, fear is in high supply and trust fragile.

Why is it so hard to accept that providing a place where abused women and children can feel safe should take priority.

In school, staff toilets are GN -cubicles with locks, because we trust the staff not to behave in a manner that would cause discomfort or harm.
If only that could be said for all users of public toilets there wouldn’t be a problem.

growstuff

But the fact is there weren't enough loos! Not that they were men or women only! It doesn't matter whether the loo was occupied by a man or a woman.

I agree that it's not always easy to provide three sets of loos, unless it's a new build.

Which was my point. People say that ‘all you have to do’ is have GN ones or that there could be three options, but practically that doesn’t always work other than in new builds.

There is currently legal action ongoing to ensure that a particular geographical area provides single sex provision with regard to refuges, if that case is successful it would have massive implications.

I am talking about a case that is currently in the press. It's an example of why men should not be placed in womens spaces which is why people are uncomfortable about discussing it.
There have been numerous cases such as this particularly in prisons, where there are many vulnerable women, but no one tends to care about those types of women.

Galaxy

I will discuss any case I like thankyou very much, it's hard to get information but is seems this is the same man who assaulted a child in a public tolilet.

Galaxy It's "sub judice" - that's why it shouldn't really be discussed.