Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

I will discuss any case I like thankyou very much, it's hard to get information but is seems this is the same man who assaulted a child in a public tolilet.

But the fact is there weren't enough loos! Not that they were men or women only! It doesn't matter whether the loo was occupied by a man or a woman.

I agree that it's not always easy to provide three sets of loos, unless it's a new build.

Try asking that if you are desperate for a wee . If it had been a women-only one the men would have gone to their own.

The point was really in answer to the idea that 'all people have to do' is provide three sets of loos. It isn't that simple in buildings that are already plumbed in the way they are. If it had been easier, we could have had another block of women's toilets - it's not like we didn't need them. Opening them to men as well just makes the situation worse.

Doodledog I don't understand. If this was a single toilet, presumably you went into the toilet and locked the door behind you, so you were safe. Why is it ridiculous that it was used by males and females (apart from the fact that it sounds as though there weren't enough toilets for the building)?

Lathyrus

We don’t know that any abuse took place and shouldnt speculate as it is under investigation.

My point was that it was so easy for her to gain access to what should have been a safe place for women and children.

It was the children who were uppermost in my mind and how it has shaken confidence in Refuges being safe places.

My questions were how can we ensure they are safe places for women and children

and

Where can abused families go if Refuges are no longer felt to be safe.

I doubt if we ever can guarantee they'll be 100% safe. Natal women have been convicted of horrific abuse and could just as easily have found a place in a refuge.

I've read a bit more about this case and I agree we shouldn't be discussing it. It wasn't really the fact that the person is trans which is the issue. It's more to do with the criminal record and false ID. The refuge undoubtedly has some questions to address.

Lathyrus

We don’t know that any abuse took place and shouldnt speculate as it is under investigation.

My point was that it was so easy for her to gain access to what should have been a safe place for women and children.

It was the children who were uppermost in my mind and how it has shaken confidence in Refuges being safe places.

My questions were how can we ensure they are safe places for women and children

and

Where can abused families go if Refuges are no longer felt to be safe.

One single case does not make a place unsafe. Sometimes mistakes happen it's unfortunate, and their assessment procedures need looking at. However it is incredibly difficult to investigate when someone is intent on deception.

I do know that to some people the principle and the ideal is what is important.

But I’m afraid I’m always going to be that person who says
“But this isn’t working out in practice, in the real world”.

We don’t know that any abuse took place and shouldnt speculate as it is under investigation.

My point was that it was so easy for her to gain access to what should have been a safe place for women and children.

It was the children who were uppermost in my mind and how it has shaken confidence in Refuges being safe places.

My questions were how can we ensure they are safe places for women and children

and

Where can abused families go if Refuges are no longer felt to be safe.

Yes it was in the garden that she played with children and helped with babies.

Lathyrus

VioletSky

I guess that's what triggers me to anger on theses topics

Personal stuff against me, I've got a thick skin

But the idea that any bullying around trans issues or public conversations or authors they respect leading to any child or young person being too afraid to reveal their feelings and self harming or suiciding

Well that just absolutely horrifies me

I was thinking on my walk today that perhaps I can't change what other adults say but I can behave myself in ways that inspire confidence in children and young people that someone will listen

I wonder if you read the case in the papers today of a convicted paedophile who lived as a transwoman for several months in a women’s refuge.

Presenting as an abused woman, “one of us” to use your own phrase, the women in the refuge trusted them with their children in the everyday life of the refuge allowing them to supervise play, help with babies, all the things that they supported each other with.

This account made my blood run cold.Hiw easy it was for this person to gain access to children simply by stating he was an abused woman.

I wonder if you have any views on how this could be prevented in a world where someone has access to female safe spaces simply by stating they are a woman?

Well if you actually read the story she stayed in a special trans block not in the women's section.. The separate facilities did share a garden.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11392601/Transgender-paedophile-caught-duping-staff-71-day-stay-domestic-violence-refuge.html

Galaxy

Yes GN need to run alongside single sex provision not replace them. In the unis I have visited there were 3 options.

I don't think it's realistic to expect building managers to install whole new toilet blocks though. Apart from the lost space there are plumbing issues and the expense could be enormous, to cater for a very small number of people.

In my last place of work (before this one) there was one female loo on the floor where my office was. Again, it doubled as the disabled one. When I say one, I mean as in one toilet, not one block. I strongly suspect that it was put in for disabled students (or possibly staff) in the days when there were fewer female staff or students, and 'converted' in the same way as the GN ones in the new place. Anyway, because of this, it was used by both sexes, which was ridiculous. The Union was always complaining, but were told every time that the building would have to be remodelled to accommodate a new block (which seemed true to my untrained eye) and that the cost of rerouting the plumbing made changes impossible.

New builds might be able to accommodate 3 sets of loos, but whether it is cost-effective to do so will depend on the number of people likely to use them.

I know lots of transwomen fleur. They would not dream of using single sex spaces. They respect womens boundaries.

Rosie51

Do people really see Eddie Izzard who is a 'girl' some of the time and a 'boy' some of the time despite being 60 years old as a 'genuine transwoman'? If he isn't the epitome of rich white male privilege then I don't know what is!

No, not at all. Eddie Izzard is a male, as he has not made the clear choice not to be a female.

I am not sure one could insist legally that only those who have fully transitioned via hormones and surgery, can be classed as 'women' in legal terms- because that would encourage more youngsters to insist on full transition as above

Simple answers, NO I do NOT have them. It is very complex, and as a female who has never had any doubt about who and what I am- I am not the best person to answer.

But it is not black and white- and 'simple answers' which result in clear discrimination and even danger, for trans women, are not the way forwards.

We all react partly due to what and whom we know. And I have several friends who are trans, 3 have gone through full physical and hormonal transition, 1 has not. And they are no threat, no risk, no danger- to anyone, of any sex, anywhere. I have to try and see things through their eyes, heart and souls.

JaneJudge

to be fair, I live nr a town that only has gender neutral toilets. All the toilets in the town centre are single toilets with a hand basin. I suppose a bit like on a train?

Fair enough! I've never really looked.

Mollygo

growstuff

The problem is Mollygo that if a fully transitioned transwoman (who would still be male according to you) were to use a male urinal, she wouldn't have a penis and wouldn't be able to urinate as men do. There are also some people in this world who would bully anybody in a skirt in a male toilet.

Why would you suggest a fully transitioned male would try to use a urinal?
That’s really taking the * * * *!

Yes they would still be male if that was their sex at birth, not just according to me, but according to their chromosomes.

I agree with the second part of your post,
so bearing in mind we’ve repeatedly been told by current and past posters that we cannot distinguish between male and female by appearance,
can you come up with a solution to this issue which doesn’t immediately allow all males to access female toilets, female facilities, or allow cheating in female sports?

Well, if I've understood your argument correctly, the person would still be male and shouldn't be using a female toilet. If there isn't a gender neutral toilet, what's the person supposed to do?

PS. Try reading what I write before you get so aggressive. It doesn't do you any favours.

Yes GN need to run alongside single sex provision not replace them. In the unis I have visited there were 3 options.

growstuff

Galaxy

You either provide fully enclosed cubicles with a sink or you provide single sex toilets and gender neutral. Then people who are happy using gender neutral do so. Many places offer this solution.

I must admit I've not noticed many gender neutral toilets. I'll have to keep an eye open for them in future.

There are some in my place of work. They used to be the Ladies'. The Gents' remains the same (presumably because of the urinals) and the old Ladies, which already included the disabled loo is now GN. Not only that, but it is right by the main door to the building, so a lot of men don't bother to walk down the corridor to the Gents', and sometimes people getting caught short on the way from one building to another use them too.

There are four cubicles to serve all the women and disabled people (both staff and students) on the ground floor, as well as passers by, the very occasional transperson and and the only other Ladies' loo is what used to be staff ones on the third floor (there is a Gents' on every floor). The ex-staff ones consist of two cubicles and a sink, and appear to have been hastily crammed into a broom cupboard when women started getting academic jobs - there is nothing like enough space to be worth trudging up three flights of stairs in the hope of finding one empty. There rarely is an empty one, as the admin staff (predominantly female) are based on the third floor.

The GN ones are traditional block loos, with a row of cubicles and sinks opposite, so anyone washing her hands after changing a tampon, or anyone needing to wash a Mooncup has to do it in mixed company or hang about waiting to get some single-sex privacy, thus lingering in one of the cubicles for longer than necessary.

I don't think that this is untypical - it is far easier to 'convert' a Ladies' loo to GN, as there is no urinal problem and anyone can use a cubicle. 'Conversion' amounts to changing the sign on the door. The fact that women take longer to pee, even without any of this, is not taken into account - we just have to queue, and if we are late for a meeting or class, so be it. Complaints are met with accusations of not wanting to find or accept solutions. See posts on here passim if you are in any doubt about that.

The building is open 24/7 as there are computers for student use and a PG library in there, so there will be times when it is quiet, too. I am not there very often or much after 6.00 these days, but I don't think I'd be very keen to use them later on. At least when they were Ladies' loos a man wandering in would be noticeably suspicious, so anyone spotting him would be alert and could call security. Now, you just have to hope he's not a rapist.

to be fair, I live nr a town that only has gender neutral toilets. All the toilets in the town centre are single toilets with a hand basin. I suppose a bit like on a train?

growstuff

The problem is Mollygo that if a fully transitioned transwoman (who would still be male according to you) were to use a male urinal, she wouldn't have a penis and wouldn't be able to urinate as men do. There are also some people in this world who would bully anybody in a skirt in a male toilet.

Why would you suggest a fully transitioned male would try to use a urinal?
That’s really taking the * * * *!

Yes they would still be male if that was their sex at birth, not just according to me, but according to their chromosomes.

I agree with the second part of your post,
so bearing in mind we’ve repeatedly been told by current and past posters that we cannot distinguish between male and female by appearance,
can you come up with a solution to this issue which doesn’t immediately allow all males to access female toilets, female facilities, or allow cheating in female sports?

Male toilets have cubicles too, growstuff.
I expect they ae used by most transmen and can be used by transwomen.

I have been around a lot of universities lately so that might be why

The problem is Mollygo that if a fully transitioned transwoman (who would still be male according to you) were to use a male urinal, she wouldn't have a penis and wouldn't be able to urinate as men do. There are also some people in this world who would bully anybody in a skirt in a male toilet.

Galaxy

You either provide fully enclosed cubicles with a sink or you provide single sex toilets and gender neutral. Then people who are happy using gender neutral do so. Many places offer this solution.

I must admit I've not noticed many gender neutral toilets. I'll have to keep an eye open for them in future.

Fleurpepper

Oh stop it.

People, like my niece and 2 friends, who looks like females, dress like females, are so visible and would be immediate target in male only toilets. Really !?! Don't tell me you can't understand this?

If that’s true then they’re unlikely to do any of the things that those causing problems do. Have they used female toilets unnoticed up till now?
Then why would that change?
We keep being told you can’t judge by appearance, but people do. What is there about the people you mention that would immediately identify them as not female?

Is it their behaviour?
Did they always display that they weren’t female in the toilets?

Did they go out of their way to make females feel threatened or uncomfortable?

Did they come out and boast that they’d broken the rules and got away with it?

It’s the TIM who caused those sorts of behaviour who are responsible for this situation, which affects females and those like the trans you refer to.

What can you do about it?
How would you make it easy to differentiate between
a) those you speak of and
b) those responsible for this situation,
so that both females and a) above can feel safe.
I’d really be happy for you to come up with a solution that does that.