Nurses Strike -Do you support? What will it look like?

Less than half of the nurses want to strike (in total). But apparently the counting was done per hospital Trust. Different way of counting the votes up! Scotland and Wales’ hospitals voted more to strike. England less so.

This, from today’s Telegraph:

“Legally, a vote in favour of strikes requires a response from just over half of those polled.

But, the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) used a “disaggregated” ballot, meaning that instead of requiring the majority of RCN members across the UK to vote, and a majority to back the strikes, every hospital was counted separately. While all NHS organisations in Scotland and Northern Ireland backed strikes, along with all bar one in Wales, in England, 102 of 215 NHS acute trusts voted to back strikes, the data showed. In the Midlands, nurses at just one in five hospitals backed strikes, with a figure of less than one in three in London.”

Hmm.

Urmstongran - well said!

The BBC 6 o’clock news has just announced that several other workers unions in the public sector are looking to strike. What Sunak and Hunt haven’t realised is that raising taxes when normal working people are facing huge increases in their energy bills (despite the government payments, which are only until April) and other costs of living, is the last straw.

No other European country is penalising its people to pay off the Covid debt in a hurry. Austerity when people’s financial backs are against the wall is only going to stir up strikes for more pay. This fiscal insanity is flushing our country down the proverbial toilet.

Wyllow3

growstuff

I'm not sure I understand "Biggest problem - they have to have enough care to integrate."

The biggest problem in my area is that two CCGs have amalgamated, but it's been more like a take-over by the bigger CCG. The HQ is in the other CCG area from mine, as are the default hospitals. I always did live on the edge of the CCG, so all the newsletters and initiatives are about places miles from where I live. We have one of the six hospitals in the country which actually had plans and funding for a rebuild (out of the 40 new hospitals!), but it's now been announced that work won't start for at least five years. Meanwhile, hospitals in the "other" CCG are being upgraded.

Being sarcastic, growstuff. As in, "integrating" care where there isnt ecare enough in each area and spending time talking about it just frustrates people on the ground like the GP at our meeting where the national NHS person was waxing enthusiastic, for her just a talking shop.

BTW, as regards records, even I was shocked at the weekend "I" headlines.
"Cyber attack hits patient care as NHS records are left in 'chaos'.

Since August, 12 Mental Heath Trusts cannot properly keep or use patient records (Mental Health records are and have always been separate from the usual NHS system). Its affecting tens of thousands of patients.
inews.co.uk/news/nhs-cyber-attack-lives-risk-mental-health-care-systems-chaos-three-months-1947561

Apart from the clear benefits to the patient, one of the benefits of integrating care for the professionals is that it reduces duplication of assessments and care though Wyllow, so perhaps it wasn’t explained to the GP in clear enough terms. Not having enough care in total makes it even more important that duplication is reduced. We have integrated community care systems in Wales, and they do work well, the GPS are supportive too.

Stressedok

I work in NHS in a hospital were the roof is held up by over 2000 props. Short staffed, underplayed. Claps don't pay our bills. The government need to put their commitment to us.

Let me guess Kings Lynn

I work in NHS in a hospital were the roof is held up by over 2000 props. Short staffed, underplayed. Claps don't pay our bills. The government need to put their commitment to us.

growstuff

I'm not sure I understand "Biggest problem - they have to have enough care to integrate."

The biggest problem in my area is that two CCGs have amalgamated, but it's been more like a take-over by the bigger CCG. The HQ is in the other CCG area from mine, as are the default hospitals. I always did live on the edge of the CCG, so all the newsletters and initiatives are about places miles from where I live. We have one of the six hospitals in the country which actually had plans and funding for a rebuild (out of the 40 new hospitals!), but it's now been announced that work won't start for at least five years. Meanwhile, hospitals in the "other" CCG are being upgraded.

Being sarcastic, growstuff. As in, "integrating" care where there isnt ecare enough in each area and spending time talking about it just frustrates people on the ground like the GP at our meeting where the national NHS person was waxing enthusiastic, for her just a talking shop.

BTW, as regards records, even I was shocked at the weekend "I" headlines.
"Cyber attack hits patient care as NHS records are left in 'chaos'.

Since August, 12 Mental Heath Trusts cannot properly keep or use patient records (Mental Health records are and have always been separate from the usual NHS system). Its affecting tens of thousands of patients.
inews.co.uk/news/nhs-cyber-attack-lives-risk-mental-health-care-systems-chaos-three-months-1947561

IMO the government needs to stop tinkering with organisational change and start looking at recruitment and retention and ways of improving patient care on the ground.

I'm not sure I understand "Biggest problem - they have to have enough care to integrate."

The biggest problem in my area is that two CCGs have amalgamated, but it's been more like a take-over by the bigger CCG. The HQ is in the other CCG area from mine, as are the default hospitals. I always did live on the edge of the CCG, so all the newsletters and initiatives are about places miles from where I live. We have one of the six hospitals in the country which actually had plans and funding for a rebuild (out of the 40 new hospitals!), but it's now been announced that work won't start for at least five years. Meanwhile, hospitals in the "other" CCG are being upgraded.

Wyllow NHS management really need to get a grip of digitalisation and devise systems which will serve patients and staff, not become a burden. My local hospital introduced a new system a few years ago and I heard it was a nightmare for the first few months, especially when it crashed (!). However, my recent experience has shown me that it seems to be working now and really has had positive effects on communication and the care I've received. I hate to think how much it's all cost, but the outcome has been positive. I know that not all trusts have such advanced systems.

GP practices are all supposed to be digitised this month. At the moment, some are, but others (like mine) are resisting. I know some people don't like to know what's wrong with them (and they can opt out), but it will be hugely advantageous to those people who want more knowledge and control over their own health.

I support a pay rise for nurses. Many experienced nurses are leaving the profession as they can get better pay and conditions elsewhere.
My DD is a nurse and says due to staff shortages they sometimes can't run essential clinics.
She is always tired as the work is very demanding and I can't blame them for looking for better prospects and leaving nursing.

Visgir1

Unless they get all the other Health care professional to go on Strike with them, I can't see any change.

All Graduates regardless of profession are paid the same.. Come in as Band 5 that's all qualified Nurses , Radiographers, All the specialist Lab staff, my Profession Cardiac Physiologist we all have the same T&Cs and pay scales. You can not give to one group and not the other.
To progress you do need further professional exam and higher bands need a minimum of MSc, or PhD.

I clearly remember having a letter from the Union about 15 years ago, saying there are a serious number of staff who will be taking thier pension due to the planned changes over the next 12 years.
There will be a long term shortage of staff until others come through the process.
I remember clearly as I thought that's me. I like many, many others took my pension.

In our Dept there was 6 of us, we all went early before our state pensions started, a couple only in thier mid 50's.

All of us are on the Hospital Bank .. (not agency) I still cover clinics 2 days a week.
I plus 2 others left as Band 8's with all the qualifications to match that level.

The other unions are all balloting now, or already have, it will be virtually the whole of the NHS, not just nurses.

growstuff its the ICSystems I was referring to as the additional management they are having to take on. Went to a meeting about them.

Biggest problem - they have to have enough care to integrate.

Kate194. Name and shame them. It's not pertinent to the O/P which asks about nurses pay and strike.

It certainly does not happen in the Trust I was a Governor on: as I have seen the years financials.

I don't doubt your friend has witnessed what she described and its clearly not OK but its not going to pay many nurses, is it, in the areas it happens. (where, to be exact?)

Certainly to suggest it's a reason NOT to support the nurses it seems to me a "look the other way" DM blame game, as the real target are successive governments.

Unless they get all the other Health care professional to go on Strike with them, I can't see any change.

All Graduates regardless of profession are paid the same.. Come in as Band 5 that's all qualified Nurses , Radiographers, All the specialist Lab staff, my Profession Cardiac Physiologist we all have the same T&Cs and pay scales. You can not give to one group and not the other.
To progress you do need further professional exam and higher bands need a minimum of MSc, or PhD.

I clearly remember having a letter from the Union about 15 years ago, saying there are a serious number of staff who will be taking thier pension due to the planned changes over the next 12 years.
There will be a long term shortage of staff until others come through the process.
I remember clearly as I thought that's me. I like many, many others took my pension.

In our Dept there was 6 of us, we all went early before our state pensions started, a couple only in thier mid 50's.

All of us are on the Hospital Bank .. (not agency) I still cover clinics 2 days a week.
I plus 2 others left as Band 8's with all the qualifications to match that level.

I certainly don't want to 'manager bash'. However, my relative who I mentioned above has been here today. She said her NHS bosses hire venues for meetings and have buffets costing thousands of pounds several times a year. She attends as part of her job. She said it's unbelievable what she sees.

sodapop

My daughter is a highly trained mental health nurse but is struggling at present with the amount of responsibility within her role. Emergency on call, training new staff, responsibility for advising care homes along with her large case load. One thing which would help in addition to more money would be the relaxation of unrealistic government targets. These have increased along with the extra stresses related to Covid.

sodapop I think the multiple levels of responsibility required are so off-putting because people just think 'I couldn't do all that' which obviously results in staff shortages. No-one will want to do a job which looks so difficult and demanding. People need a job which is within their capabilities and it seems as though so many jobs are beyond this.

I support the medical profession 100%, especially the nurses. I’m hoping their action will not affect my next cancer scan and appointment. IMO, they have been treated very poorly. I’d like to see proper pay bands and each authority running it’s own nurse bank. I know Newcastle does just that. No more paying 3x as much for bank nurses. Just the proper pay for the job.

Why is it the people who saw us through lockdown by carrying on working who are now having to strike for better pay? They risked (and sometimes lost) their lives by keeping going out to work. Nurses, teachers, rail workers. They all ran risks that most of us didn't have to.

My family members who are teachers have recently been balloted for strike action over pay. I don't know how they voted, but I do know that they would have been much keener to vote for strikes over conditions - more teaching assistants and better provision for children who have (or cause) problems, for example. Perhaps some of the nurses would rather have better conditions, more staff and protection from abusive patients.

Anyway, I can see why they are totally fed up and I support them.

I was a nurse for 40 some years and fully support the nurses,it usually happens that when a rise is given staff parking goes up !!

My daughter is a highly trained mental health nurse but is struggling at present with the amount of responsibility within her role. Emergency on call, training new staff, responsibility for advising care homes along with her large case load. One thing which would help in addition to more money would be the relaxation of unrealistic government targets. These have increased along with the extra stresses related to Covid.

Wyllow3

growstuff

Wyllow I don't see that amalgamating trusts would reduce the need for management either.

It's complicating it, growstuff, tbh. In an ideal world its a good idea, but all it means is time taken away from organising decent patient care.

I'm not sure that it is such a good idea. Bigger trusts would just mean that senior management would be more remote from the people at the bottom of the hierarchy and the management teams would have to be bigger. The advantage of smaller trusts is that they should be able to provide a service more appropriate to local needs and can liaise more easily with other healthcare providers in a given location.

Problems do exist when, for example, trusts don't have compatible IT and recording systems. For example, Royal Papworth Hospital is on the same campus as Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge, but they have different IT systems. Where I live pre-natal care is provided by a team of midwives different from the hospital where most mothers give birth and records aren't always shared.

Trusts can and do share resources at times. I know that consultants sometimes work for different trusts and trusts will refer to other trusts when they don't have specialised equipment. They all benefit from centralised buying, but it's up to the individual trusts to keep their stocks up.

And don't get me started on the new Integrated Care Systems, which have amalgamated Clinical Commissioning Groups! They cover a huge area and if you live on the edge of one (as I do), it's easy to wonder if the management even knows you exist.

icanhandthemback

Inflation has been very low though for most of those years, Whitewavemark2.

I think Nurses and Drs, particularly at the lower end of the scale should have a triple lock plan with an agreement not to strike over pay.

Yes of course averaging about 2% - but that means a year on year pay cut for every year that public sector workers have had no pay rise.

That has been managed by the workers by cutting back a bit every year. However now that is becoming impossible without cutting out essentials.

I can give an example of my DS. He is a highly skilled environmental scientist but has not received a rise in his salary for the entire Tory government tenure. He loves his job, in particular has a love for the natural environment that consumes him, so I suspect it is the primary reason for him remaining working for the government. However, many(most) of his colleagues, whom he manages have left to go to much more lucrative jobs and it is becoming more and more difficult to recruit.

They have been balloted to strike like so many of the other public service sector workers.

The government has been incredibly shortsighted, or what I suspect is most likely a deliberate policy to reduce the state sector to an absolute minimum.

Casdon

Before we get diverted down a manager bashing route, here is the accurate information about relative costs, numbers etc.
www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs
To be clear, long term underfunding of the NHS is the issue not over management, that’s just a lazy political excuse for the long term neglect of the NHS by the government - it’s a deliberate political strategy.

Completely agree.
This crisis has been building over the last 12 years and we are now in the perfect storm. Unfortunately nurses will be just the start and I support them 100%.

I worked all my professional life in some branch of nursing and never came across the Nightingale Pledge. Nurses aren’t Florence Nightingales, or Angels, they are professional people doing a very demanding job, which many wouldn’t do, in often less than optimum conditions, and for unprofessional pay.

The real time reduction in NHS staff salaries since the Tories came into power.

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/chart-of-the-week-real-terms-nhs-staff-pay-from-2010-to-2020

I think that is a good idea icanhandthemback. I do support the strike. I also think that the Government should have given them, and other NHS staff a large pay rise immediately after the first wave of covid, when the whole country was on their side and understood the debt of gratitude that we owe them. Now, after time has gone by, we are taking them for granted gain, talking about "vocation" etc. I even heard a woman on Any Answers a few weeks ago saying that nurses did not need a payrise because hospitals were organising food banks for them!