Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

The UN special rapporteur on Violence against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, also thinks there are problems and is warning that the Scottish Government is making a mistake with its Gender Recognition Reform legislation as currently proposed.

"Reem Alsalem, the current special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, has condemned the Scottish government’s proposed reforms to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act. These present “potential risks to the safety of women” since they fail to “provide for any safeguarding measures to ensure that the procedure is not, as far as can be reasonably assured, abused by sexual predators and other perpetrators of violence”."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d0021188-6b4d-11ed-b361-431d7dcc7c0e?shareToken=840f2b509e2aa8bc081ecafdca192880

As the article says, Nicola Sturgeon is usually very interested in what the UN says.
I hope she takes notice of this.

Men arent allowed in female spaces, some people seem to think this is some sort of personal affront, of course none of the men I know who respect womens consent and boundaries see it this way.

Iam64

Glory - Where’s the evidence gender dysphoria people are not permitted to refuse treatment.
You seem to view gender dysphoria as an isolated condition. It isn’t. People with GD are likely to have other diagnosis, narcissistic pd seems not uncommon
Thank goodness for the Cass report

Iam64 If you don't understand that the GRC requires at present two medical certificates, one from a doctor from a specified list and one from any doctor. The doctors are required to give information about the transperson and the treatments they have received if they have not had surgery the doctor needs to explain why not.
Of course there may be other conditions but that doesn't explain why such an exception is made.
The basis of the argument seems to be that some men may use self ID to commit crimes so no one may use it.
Imagine if that was done with say the police force. Policemen have committed murder and rape so perhaps no man should be permitted to become a police officer. Nonsense isn't it.

Glory - Where’s the evidence gender dysphoria people are not permitted to refuse treatment.
You seem to view gender dysphoria as an isolated condition. It isn’t. People with GD are likely to have other diagnosis, narcissistic pd seems not uncommon
Thank goodness for the Cass report

What do you mean by 'insanity'?

I don't know if that is a plea now - isn't it something about 'whilst the balance of his/her mind was altered'?

Nobody can self-diagnose insanity, so that example falls at the first fence. Also, of someone has a mental illness that means they are a danger to the public they can be sectioned, which will most likely mean enforced medication. But none of this is remotely relevant, as you know.

If the people on the RTN marches didn't feel threatened, why would they march? How do you see them as different from women who feel threatened by having their and their daughters' granddaughters' safe spaces removed? Why is one group seen as having a 'victim mentality' and the other not?

Iam64

Bi polar is whatabiutery with bells and whistles,
We have people on the ASD over represented in trans clinics. What about borderline personality disorder, if we are whatabouting

Just an example of someone who could refuse treatment, something it seems the gender dysphoric are not permitted to do.
Borderline Personality Disorder is another interesting thing. Some think that a great deal.of violent crime is committed by such individuals and yet they are not forced to accept treatment it is usually voluntary.

Mollygo

Would you consider a plea of insanity in a murder case Glory?
Your question, so I’m sure you could answer it.
Do you know anything about how people with bi-polar (nice diversion from OP) are treated?

Mollygo I was told gender dysphoria was different and asked when anyone else got special treatment, so actually I don't have to decide it isn't my belief that anyone is treated specially.

I know a lot about bi-polar including some of the treatments that were used in the past and the way some people self medicate.

Remember all those lost to gender based violence
Yes indeed! -both those gender matches their birth sex who are attacked and those who are attacked whose choice of gender does not match their birth sex.
Bring your solidarity, placards etc to protest against those trans whose behaviour has made ordinary trans more susceptible to violence.
Shout out against those who still support the trans who offer violence either to trans, homosexuals and females
Reclaim the night that keeps all people safe from harmful males!

Doodledog

*. . . why should gender dysphoria be different to other conditions?*

Is there any other condition that means the person with it can demand preferential treatment under law? And that allows those who diagnose themselves with it to demand that treatment? And that has opposition from others who feel that their rights are threatened by the preferential treatment demanded by those who have self-diagnosed? Or that is suffered by 0.005% of children but has mandatory training courses in schools for dealing with it?

It is different from other conditions.

Also, whilst your virtual marches were doubtless well-intentioned and good for solidarity, as you say they do not address women's fears about allowing men into their safe spaces, so that answer doesn't address my question at all. Women and girls in the 70s marching to Reclaim the Streets (I was one of them) were reacting to the threat of being attacked by men. That is exactly what women are reacting to now when we oppose self-id and all that goes with it.

Reasons for the Reclaim the Night marches
March with us to...
Raise awareness of the level of violence against women and girls still taking place across the world, the UK and our local area. And make sure people keep talking about it.
Demand that local leaders, politicians and decision makers take action to make our homes, streets and institutions safe for all women and girls.
Remember all those lost to gender based violence and show solidarity to all those fighting to end it.
Bring your voices, placards, whistles and friends and join us

Bi polar is whatabiutery with bells and whistles,
We have people on the ASD over represented in trans clinics. What about borderline personality disorder, if we are whatabouting

Would you consider a plea of insanity in a murder case Glory?
Your question, so I’m sure you could answer it.
Do you know anything about how people with bi-polar (nice diversion from OP) are treated?

I came across photographs of our late 70’s protest outside the new ‘sex shop’ and our reclaim the night March. I’m still ub touch with most of the women involved, we are still wanting the same things, for men not to harass, intimidate and attack women. Latest figures show over the last ten years an average of 77 female victims are killed by a male partner/ex partner
Us figures show 98 % of all homicide perpetrators worldwide are men

I’m not saying all trans women pose a threat but evidence is suggesting some are exploiting the understandable sympathy - like those who change their name to avoid sexual convictions

Doodledog

*. . . why should gender dysphoria be different to other conditions?*

Is there any other condition that means the person with it can demand preferential treatment under law? And that allows those who diagnose themselves with it to demand that treatment? And that has opposition from others who feel that their rights are threatened by the preferential treatment demanded by those who have self-diagnosed? Or that is suffered by 0.005% of children but has mandatory training courses in schools for dealing with it?

It is different from other conditions.

Also, whilst your virtual marches were doubtless well-intentioned and good for solidarity, as you say they do not address women's fears about allowing men into their safe spaces, so that answer doesn't address my question at all. Women and girls in the 70s marching to Reclaim the Streets (I was one of them) were reacting to the threat of being attacked by men. That is exactly what women are reacting to now when we oppose self-id and all that goes with it.

I don't know would you consider the plea of insanity in a murder case special treatment?
If someone who is bi-polar doesn't take their medication they can be a threat to the public, should they therefore be forcibly medicated? A small proportion of mentally ill people can be violent and dangerous, does that mean all mentally ill people should be compulsorily medicated?

. . . why should gender dysphoria be different to other conditions?

Is there any other condition that means the person with it can demand preferential treatment under law? And that allows those who diagnose themselves with it to demand that treatment? And that has opposition from others who feel that their rights are threatened by the preferential treatment demanded by those who have self-diagnosed? Or that is suffered by 0.005% of children but has mandatory training courses in schools for dealing with it?

It is different from other conditions.

Also, whilst your virtual marches were doubtless well-intentioned and good for solidarity, as you say they do not address women's fears about allowing men into their safe spaces, so that answer doesn't address my question at all. Women and girls in the 70s marching to Reclaim the Streets (I was one of them) were reacting to the threat of being attacked by men. That is exactly what women are reacting to now when we oppose self-id and all that goes with it.

Does your post @ 15.14 mean you regard counselling as medical intervention Glorianny? If so, what would you suggest should be in place to ensure that anyone seeking a GRC is genuine, and not wanting so for nefarious reasons?

Smileless2012

Could you answer my question @ 13.59 Glorianny; what do you mean by medical intervention?

GRC's shouldn't be restricted only to those who can afford them. However, they also shouldn't be dished out to absolutely everyone who asks for one. I agree FarNorth which is why I mentioned a genuine need for a GRC in my previous post.

I think that's been covered see above!

Could you answer my question @ 13.59 Glorianny; what do you mean by medical intervention?

GRC's shouldn't be restricted only to those who can afford them. However, they also shouldn't be dished out to absolutely everyone who asks for one. I agree FarNorth which is why I mentioned a genuine need for a GRC in my previous post.

FarNorth

You didn't answer my previous post Glorianny, about detransitioners who say they got no help, from the NHS, except being ushered onto the medication and surgery pathway.
The point is - They Now Realise That Counselling Was Needed.!

Now, tho, ScotGov wants to affirm everyone right away meaning they'll feel even more definite about their 'gender identity' and won't even look for help other than hormones & surgery.

(Unless, of course, they are straightforward abusive men.)

If someone is bi-polar they require their condition to be treated by medication. But no one forces them to take that medication unless they are sectioned. Medical treatment for anything firstly requires consent. The only time anyone can be teated without their consent is if they are sectioned.
Of course more counselling should be available but why should gender dysphoria be different to other conditions? We stopped forcibly treating others a long time ago.

GRCs shouldn't be restricted only to those who can afford them.
However, they also shouldn't be dished out to absolutely everyone who asks for one.

FFS Glorianny? Is that an example of your famous politeness?

You didn't answer my previous post Glorianny, about detransitioners who say they got no help, from the NHS, except being ushered onto the medication and surgery pathway.
The point is - They Now Realise That Counselling Was Needed.!

Now, tho, ScotGov wants to affirm everyone right away meaning they'll feel even more definite about their 'gender identity' and won't even look for help other than hormones & surgery.

(Unless, of course, they are straightforward abusive men.)

Doodledog

Your reply conveniently did not address my question about how you would advise your 70s chums to protest in today's environment, Glorianny, but you managed to get a sneer in, as expected.

The 70s was half a century ago. The times were different and women had different issues to deal with, but as you keep dragging them into threads about today's issues, it would be helpful if you could make suggestions rather than snipe about the victim mentality you seem to see modern women as having.

Your link doesn't open for me, but an article citing individual experiences of women who have had no issues with transwomen is unlikely to convince me of much anyway.

Nobody is suggesting restrictions based appearance. Appearance is not the issue here - you keep pointing out that it is not aways easy to tell who is trans. I am less sure about that, but most of the time people aren't looking for it, and when trainwomen are not doing any harm, most people are unlikely to care. We are suggesting restrictions based on sex. How often do we have to say it?

Well I've been in a couple of Reclaim the Night marches run by the TUC in the past few years. They went on-line for a bit during lockdown but are now live again. www.tuc.org.uk/events/reclaim-night-goes-virtual
Of course they highlight violence transwomen suffer as well.

Your reply conveniently did not address my question about how you would advise your 70s chums to protest in today's environment, Glorianny, but you managed to get a sneer in, as expected.

The 70s was half a century ago. The times were different and women had different issues to deal with, but as you keep dragging them into threads about today's issues, it would be helpful if you could make suggestions rather than snipe about the victim mentality you seem to see modern women as having.

Your link doesn't open for me, but an article citing individual experiences of women who have had no issues with transwomen is unlikely to convince me of much anyway.

Nobody is suggesting restrictions based appearance. Appearance is not the issue here - you keep pointing out that it is not aways easy to tell who is trans. I am less sure about that, but most of the time people aren't looking for it, and when trainwomen are not doing any harm, most people are unlikely to care. We are suggesting restrictions based on sex. How often do we have to say it?

FarNorth

Glorianny do you really think it's a good idea to abandon medical help because of cost?
Let's say someone has an eye problem, meaning they can't see. They might be able to claim benefits because of that. Evidence will be needed, however, of medical diagnosis and of treatment available.
Should the system be changed so that any costs involved in that can be avoided, and benefits given automatically?
Thus disregarding the chance of the person being helped by treatment?

FFS FarNorthwhy do you persist in misunderstanding? Transpeople should receive every possible help in the way of counselling, medication, surgical procedures or anything else they need if they want it. What they should not be expected to do is to subject themselves to a procedure they are charged for and without which they are unable to obtain a GRC. Basically it is restricting GRCs to those who can afford them.
If you have an eye problem and you are treated you are highly unlikely to be charged for anything by anybody.
The cost of a medical certificate is about £50
GRC costs have dropped from £140 to £5
But it still isn't cheap.

With reference to GRC's, you've said you don't want medical intervention Glorianny, what do you mean by medical intervention?

If you mean medication and/or surgical procedures I agree, but if you include some means of being as certain as one can be that the GRC is a genuine request, then I disagree especially as this can provide access to female safe spaces.

This court case is pending, of a woman who was refused a female-only sexual assault counselling group despite the same organisation running trans-only groups.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346