Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

It isn't making light of anything to say instances are few. It is simply stating a fact.
Since the 2019 Upskirting act 16 men have been convicted of 48 instances. This was a specific act to prevent a specific crime and it seems to be successful.
how wonderful to know that over the course of 2-3 years only 16 men out of a population of tens of millions indulged in the vile practice of upskirting. Fair warms the cockles of your heart for sure. 🙄🙄

I won't be entering into discussion about it. There is no point.
But I fear you will nevertheless.
Doodledog summed up that post very accurately.

good point too

I’m assuming that even if self ID causes a rise in males using it to access women’s spaces you sold still support the Act, because the fact that they are using that law to abuse women doesn’t mean that a law meant to benefit trans people should be changed. It’s not the law in itself that’s bad it’s that it’s being used in a bad way?

I don’t think I’ve express that very well, but is that the reasoning? Like stop and search is meant to protect but is being used against a group of people?

If there is a surge in males using the Act to access women’s spaces for male purposes would you accept any amendments. What amendments would work do you think to stop them taking advantage of the provisions of the Act?

I think it was volver on another thread who accused me of wanting details😬 but I believe we need to think things through before we make far reaching changes. Especially where women’s safety - and that includes feeling safe enough to live our lives - is concerned.

JaneJudge

Lots of women are sexually assaulted and even raped and never even report it because of misogyny and how the system is set up. The conviction figures are very low for sexual male on female crimes. maybe that is just one reason why many females who post on here may be dubious as to whether the law works enough in the first place. This has nothing to do with people being trans

Stalking is a very real problem and the victims are often disbelieved by some police personnel. The rates of conviction are very low indeed but stalking can cause untold misery, stress and can wreck the lives of victims.

it is called being ignorant

I won't be entering into discussion about it. There is no point.
That's a very convenient way to ensure that your posts lack any sort of accountability. You can say what you like, however tenuous, and then refuse to 'enter into discussion' when called to account.

Lots of women are sexually assaulted and even raped and never even report it because of misogyny and how the system is set up. The conviction figures are very low for sexual male on female crimes. maybe that is just one reason why many females who post on here may be dubious as to whether the law works enough in the first place. This has nothing to do with people being trans

Lathyrus

Male on female voyerism is so disturbing to experience because of the threat of what an excited male might do. It’s the first step in sexual abuse.

Anyone who has experienced it, particularly in a place where you thought you were safe will tell you that it remains with you for a very long time.

Those who make light of it - it doesn’t happen- it’s only a few- it’s nothing much anyway- and yet are so concerned with the feelings and rights of a different group.

Why all the concern for one and contempt for the other? I find it impossible to understand.

There are lots of things which people find disturbing.
If those things are illegal they are dealt with by the law.

However we do not legislate for the possibility that someone may do something disturbing. It would be impossible to do so without infringing on civil liberties. So there is a possibility that young men may be involved in drug activities, but all young men are not routinely tested.

It isn't making light of anything to say instances are few. It is simply stating a fact.
Since the 2019 Upskirting act 16 men have been convicted of 48 instances. This was a specific act to prevent a specific crime and it seems to be successful.

I have no difficulty with laws which protect women. I do have problems with suppositions about possible instances of crimes which don't seem to be happening elsewhere, the wrongful linking of a group of people with those crimes, and legislation which discriminates against them, because of an unproven, and possibly completely erroneous idea. It's how discrimination against groups of people works. I'd liken the idea that transpeople must be subject to the present regulation, and not be able to self ID, because there may be men who will use that process, to the discrimination practised by the stop and search laws against black youths. Both are bad legal concepts that do nothing to prevent crime, have no basis in real facts, and alienate minority groups, both are discrimination.
Before either DD or MG ump on tis I won't be entering into discussion about it. There is no point. My ideas are always misrepresented by both anyway.
I do resent the way that some people will assert that intersectional feminists don't care about women. Of course we care. But we also recognise the harm that is being done to women who don't conform and we know that transpeople are not the enemy. We also see some very unacceptable people and views linked with these ideas.

an older lady in Farrah trousers has caused such a controversy, it really is quite hilarious

My pad says “the URL can’t be shown”

Lathyrus

Independent source?

Please name it. Otherwise it’s just hearsay.

I posted the link. It was written by

^Reporting by Enrique Anarte in Berlin; Editing by Lyndsay Griffiths and Hugo Greenhalgh. Please credit the Thomson Reuters Foundation, the charitable arm of Thomson Reuters, that covers the lives of people around the world who struggle to live freely or fairly. Visit news.trust.org)^

Openly is an initiative of the Thomson Reuters Foundation dedicated to impartial coverage of LGBT+ issues from around the world

Mollygowhy do you feel the need to castigate me for things I have never said? It's really not an argument and it is a bit difficult to deal with when it happens again and again.
For the record once again.
Transwomen were put into female prisons when there was a series of them committing suicide in male prisons. Judges were forced to decide if they should pass what was almost certainly a death sentence on them. They decided on women's prisons instead. It was wrong. Transprisons are now in operation. They are the right places for transwomen.
This was nothing to do with transactivists. It was trying to find a solution to a problem.

I believe the law as it stands protects women's spaces. If it is not applied correctly that isn't the fault of transwomen, or me for that matter .

Male on female voyerism is so disturbing to experience because of the threat of what an excited male might do. It’s the first step in sexual abuse.

Anyone who has experienced it, particularly in a place where you thought you were safe will tell you that it remains with you for a very long time.

Those who make light of it - it doesn’t happen- it’s only a few- it’s nothing much anyway- and yet are so concerned with the feelings and rights of a different group.

Why all the concern for one and contempt for the other? I find it impossible to understand.

Mollygo

^Or are we saying that unsubstantiated reports of women's views are acceptable. But the personal reports of transpeople about suicide attempts are to be ignored.^

Are WE saying?
You now feel you speak for all posters? That sounds rather pretentious or even a bit n- - - ic.

No.
Only you are saying that here Gloriannyt

Time and again, sympathy and consideration has been expressed on GN for the plight of all trans whose lives have been made more difficult by the actions of some TW and the violent support of TRA.

You, on the other hand continue to ignore this and accuse posters of being transphobic, anti trans.

Glorianny
Accepting one lot of statements but rejecting the ones that don't fit your viewpoint is just showing bias.

That’s just what you do.
You ignore the statements made in my post above because they don’t fit your viewpoint.

It isn’t just you who has sympathy for trans-who are suicidal. It isn’t just you who understands some of the difficulties faced by trans.
We share that point of view.

The statements that you ignore if they don’t fit your point of view are those that point out that many of the problems faced by trans now, are a result of the negative image of trans caused by the harmful actions of some transwomen and TRA.

They’re caused by the refusal of TRA to admit those actions are wrong. They’re caused e.g. by the support for TW in female prisons and the other areas.

It is unfair to condemn all TW because of those actions. I share that POV.
But the refusal by you and others to condemn the actions of the harmful few TW and TRA and your refusal to support the rights of females that they’re trying to remove, contributes to the belief that all TW are harmful.

I know lots of men. I don't know any who would bother with all the fuss changing gender means to access women's spaces. As for voyeurism it isn't something limited to men.

You can't know if any of them would, or not, but let's assume you're right and they wouldn't.
Let's assume they also wouldn't commit sexual assault or armed robbery or housebreaking.
That doesn't mean that nobody would do those things. They happen all the time.
Some men do bad things and there needs to be at least an attempt at protection against those things.

I haven't seen any reports of female voyeurs, but plenty of male ones.
If there are female voyeurs why would anyone want to increase the problem by introducing male voyeurs?

Independent source?

Please name it. Otherwise it’s just hearsay.

Lathyrus

Glorianny

Lathyrus

Glorianny

MerylStreep

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

That wasn't whatI was dealing with MerylStreep I was showing that self ID even after 10 years hasn't resulted in hundreds of men trying to identify as trans to access women's spaces. Trans acceptance is another matter. But it is undoubtedly connected to the misinformation and scaremongering on these threads.

Men don’t need to pretend to be trans to gain access to women’s spaces in Argentina because it is a society where what men want is what happens. The law very rarely steps in to provide protection for females, abuse of females by males is regarded as part of life and very often the fault of the woman, isn’t n not being compliant or being provocative.

It was one of the countries where I felt most unsafe.

As male to female crimes are not often recorded or even acknowledged I don’t think Argentina is a good comparison

But surely if actually being able to appear as a woman and access women's spaces was something which is prevalent and a direct result of self ID there would still be a number of men (possibly even more) who would use this method to gain access to women's spaces. After all if the primary object is to gain access to those spaces, the other factors would simply enable a man to get away with it more, not limit the possibility of any man doing it.
I am looking at the other 29 countries which use self ID to see if they have any figures to compare.

I don’t think you’ve understood.

Men don’t have to try to access women through nefarious means in a society where they can easily access and abuse them and rarely be subject to any censure.

Until now we’ve had a society that does attempt to protect women and some men resent this and try to find ways around that protection.

You know, you must know that, as well as direct physical abuse, men are voyeurs. They find stimulation in just seeing and watching. Any many of them believe this is harmless because no direct threat takes place.

They will use a law that is designed to support transpeople to give them access to women’s spaces simply by declaring themselves women, just for the arousal of being there.

Do you not know men at all?

But the report from an independent source has looked at it. They reported one case of a man declaring as a woman to receive better welfare payments and one father because he wanted better treatment in a divorce and one offender who got a woman prisoner pregnant. That's in 10 years.
I know lots of men. I don't know any who would bother with all the fuss changing gender means to access women's spaces. As for voyeurism it isn't something limited to men.

Glorianny

Lathyrus

Glorianny

MerylStreep

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

That wasn't whatI was dealing with MerylStreep I was showing that self ID even after 10 years hasn't resulted in hundreds of men trying to identify as trans to access women's spaces. Trans acceptance is another matter. But it is undoubtedly connected to the misinformation and scaremongering on these threads.

Men don’t need to pretend to be trans to gain access to women’s spaces in Argentina because it is a society where what men want is what happens. The law very rarely steps in to provide protection for females, abuse of females by males is regarded as part of life and very often the fault of the woman, isn’t n not being compliant or being provocative.

It was one of the countries where I felt most unsafe.

As male to female crimes are not often recorded or even acknowledged I don’t think Argentina is a good comparison

But surely if actually being able to appear as a woman and access women's spaces was something which is prevalent and a direct result of self ID there would still be a number of men (possibly even more) who would use this method to gain access to women's spaces. After all if the primary object is to gain access to those spaces, the other factors would simply enable a man to get away with it more, not limit the possibility of any man doing it.
I am looking at the other 29 countries which use self ID to see if they have any figures to compare.

I don’t think you’ve understood.

Men don’t have to try to access women through nefarious means in a society where they can easily access and abuse them and rarely be subject to any censure.

Until now we’ve had a society that does attempt to protect women and some men resent this and try to find ways around that protection.

You know, you must know that, as well as direct physical abuse, men are voyeurs. They find stimulation in just seeing and watching. Any many of them believe this is harmless because no direct threat takes place.

They will use a law that is designed to support transpeople to give them access to women’s spaces simply by declaring themselves women, just for the arousal of being there.

Do you not know men at all?

Mollygo

But surely if actually being able to appear as a woman and access women's spaces was something which is prevalent and a direct result of self ID there would still be a number of men (possibly even more) who would use this method to gain access to women's spaces. After all if the primary object is to gain access to those spaces, the other factors would simply enable a man to get away with it more, not limit the possibility of any man doing it.

What evidence have you to show that doesn’t happen?

Well the people in the article I linked to Mollygo included feminist groups, a woman lawyer and a UN representative. You are quite entitled to question them if you wish.
But the statements have just as much value as some of the things questioned on these threads such as the levels of violence against transpeople and the numbers of suicides and suicide attempts by transpeople.
Accepting one lot of statements but rejecting the ones that don't fit your viewpoint is just showing bias.

But surely if actually being able to appear as a woman and access women's spaces was something which is prevalent and a direct result of self ID there would still be a number of men (possibly even more) who would use this method to gain access to women's spaces. After all if the primary object is to gain access to those spaces, the other factors would simply enable a man to get away with it more, not limit the possibility of any man doing it.

What evidence have you to show that doesn’t happen?

I’m not sure that looking at other countries is helpful really, unless you are suggesting that transpeople are not subject to the same cultural norms and differences as other members of their communities?

We are back to sloppy research parameters, I think.

Lathyrus

Glorianny

MerylStreep

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

That wasn't whatI was dealing with MerylStreep I was showing that self ID even after 10 years hasn't resulted in hundreds of men trying to identify as trans to access women's spaces. Trans acceptance is another matter. But it is undoubtedly connected to the misinformation and scaremongering on these threads.

Men don’t need to pretend to be trans to gain access to women’s spaces in Argentina because it is a society where what men want is what happens. The law very rarely steps in to provide protection for females, abuse of females by males is regarded as part of life and very often the fault of the woman, isn’t n not being compliant or being provocative.

It was one of the countries where I felt most unsafe.

As male to female crimes are not often recorded or even acknowledged I don’t think Argentina is a good comparison

But surely if actually being able to appear as a woman and access women's spaces was something which is prevalent and a direct result of self ID there would still be a number of men (possibly even more) who would use this method to gain access to women's spaces. After all if the primary object is to gain access to those spaces, the other factors would simply enable a man to get away with it more, not limit the possibility of any man doing it.
I am looking at the other 29 countries which use self ID to see if they have any figures to compare.

Or are we saying that unsubstantiated reports of women's views are acceptable. But the personal reports of transpeople about suicide attempts are to be ignored.

Are WE saying?
You now feel you speak for all posters? That sounds rather pretentious or even a bit n- - - ic.

No.
Only you are saying that here Gloriannyt

Time and again, sympathy and consideration has been expressed on GN for the plight of all trans whose lives have been made more difficult by the actions of some TW and the violent support of TRA.

You, on the other hand continue to ignore this and accuse posters of being transphobic, anti trans.

Glorianny

MerylStreep

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

That wasn't whatI was dealing with MerylStreep I was showing that self ID even after 10 years hasn't resulted in hundreds of men trying to identify as trans to access women's spaces. Trans acceptance is another matter. But it is undoubtedly connected to the misinformation and scaremongering on these threads.

Trans acceptance in Argentina is undoubtedly connected to threads on Gransnet?

Another logical leap, surely?

Speaking of which, have you come up with an answer that explains your last one yet?