Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

Glorianny

MerylStreep

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

That wasn't whatI was dealing with MerylStreep I was showing that self ID even after 10 years hasn't resulted in hundreds of men trying to identify as trans to access women's spaces. Trans acceptance is another matter. But it is undoubtedly connected to the misinformation and scaremongering on these threads.

Men don’t need to pretend to be trans to gain access to women’s spaces in Argentina because it is a society where what men want is what happens. The law very rarely steps in to provide protection for females, abuse of females by males is regarded as part of life and very often the fault of the woman, isn’t n not being compliant or being provocative.

It was one of the countries where I felt most unsafe.

As male to female crimes are not often recorded or even acknowledged I don’t think Argentina is a good comparison

Glorianny

Galaxy

I think it depends what number of assaults on women you think is ok to make men feel better. It's also about the damage to the notion of consent, about women feeling uncomfortable, and avoiding using services.
Farnorth I am useless at links on GN, if you use the search function on MN and put in self IID, that thread comes up.

If you read the report there was one incident in ten years.

The only real academic report I could find which interviewed and reported the views of service users for women's services was the one I linked to on Tyneside. You can read their views if you are interested.
Or are we saying that unsubstantiated reports of women's views are acceptable. But the personal reports of transpeople about suicide attempts are to be ignored?

Galaxy

I think it depends what number of assaults on women you think is ok to make men feel better. It's also about the damage to the notion of consent, about women feeling uncomfortable, and avoiding using services.
Farnorth I am useless at links on GN, if you use the search function on MN and put in self IID, that thread comes up.

If you read the report there was one incident in ten years.

MerylStreep

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

That wasn't whatI was dealing with MerylStreep I was showing that self ID even after 10 years hasn't resulted in hundreds of men trying to identify as trans to access women's spaces. Trans acceptance is another matter. But it is undoubtedly connected to the misinformation and scaremongering on these threads.

This one, *Galaxy*?

FarNorth

So howls & threats mean that our politicians give in to bullies and pretend to believe lies?

Sadly, I think that's true. It has to be either that or there is something else driving the refusal of all parties to ignore the concerns of women. I don't believe for a minute that Keir Starmer, David Lammy or Angela Rainer don't know what a woman is, or that whether men have cervixes is a complex question.

Galaxy
Are you using an iPad ?

Glorianny
You want to make it sound as if life for the Trans person in Argentina is sweetness and light: it’s far from it.

www.government.nl/latest/news/2022/03/31/transgender-people-in-argentina-and-colombia-fight-for-equal-rights

I think it depends what number of assaults on women you think is ok to make men feel better. It's also about the damage to the notion of consent, about women feeling uncomfortable, and avoiding using services.
Farnorth I am useless at links on GN, if you use the search function on MN and put in self IID, that thread comes up.

^ although it has happened, it isn't usual^
The usual excuse again.
If it only hurts a few females . . .

Argentina passed self ID legislation 10 years ago. There is little evidence of any men using trans to commit crimes although it has happened, it isn't usual www.openlynews.com/i/?id=21757767-4909-4844-922f-41903ff042f8

Rosie51

FarNorth

"There is no evidence" because there is no official wish to record or announce that evidence.
There is huge distress being caused to women prisoners, in those countries, but it is not recorded in any way.
Actual incidents of harm are recorded as involving females only.
Likewise, outwith prison, crimes committed by men identifying as transwomen are being recorded as female crimes - that is happening in the UK too. And I'm sure you've seen the UK newspaper reports of "Woman committed hideous crime......she this.....she that .
Wouldn't it be a good idea to record these things accurately so that claims of 'No Evidence' could be seen as truthful (or not).

Quoting this post because it deserves a second reading. When 'incidents' are not recorded accurately, and lie about the biological sex of the offenders, then of course there is 'no evidence'.
Why is there such fear about identifying the biological sex of offenders, could it be because it will dismantle the myth of 'no danger from self ID' ? Men are not threatened by any female self IDing as a man, the same can not be said for women of any male self IDing as a woman.

Agreed 100%, Rosie (and FN!)

As someone with a background in research, it pains me to see how slapdash some of the claims and 'evidence' on this subject can be.

We've had threads about the percentage of young transpeople who have attempted suicide, for instance. There are problems with stats like this that could be spotted by a blind man on a galloping horse, if he had any sort of experience in dealing with evidence. For one thing, there is no definition of a transperson, so the ones in the study could have been fully transitioned, people 'living as' the opposite sex, those who have 'girl and boy days', the generally confused and who knows who else. For another, the instances of attempted suicide are notoriously difficult to count. If someone ends up in hospital and says that they had tried to take their life the instance might be recorded. But if they say they forgot that they'd been taking paracetamol every hour, and that they thought the gin they'd used to wash them down was water until they'd swallowed the whole bottle, then it would count as an accident. Also, many people's attempts are cries for help, and many more are genuine accidents or sex games gone wrong. And what are the other variables that might have made them attempt suicide? Could it be that there is a correlation between mental health issues and gender confusion? How anyone can use such unreliable figures to come up with statistics about a percentage of suicidal transpeople is beyond me, but there are those who lap up any 'evidence' that their cause is true, and post about it to get sympathy. Of course, one young person feeling wretched is one too many, but decisions about treatment and legislation needs to be based on reliable stats.

Claims such as 'the most marginalised group in society' are similarly totally flawed. What is the definition of 'marginalised'? Who is in the trans 'group', and with which other groups are they being compared? How do we know that they are marginalised, even when we have a definition? By self-report? Surely that is subjective at best. Who keeps figures about 'marginalisation'? The police? Schools? Employers? I doubt it, and if they did, how could they be accurately compared? Yet we hear phrases like this trotted out regularly as though they are fact.

Evidence always needs to be rigorously verified, which can't happen unless instances of whatever is being studied are accurately recorded. How do we know the % of attacks in jails by transwomen when we don't know how many there are? And how many women in refuges would be likely to say that they are deeply uneasy about the fact that there are is a man in the next room, knowing that the official line is 'inclusivity' and 'acceptance', and that their views are secondary to those of transpeople? I would think twice, particularly if my chances of keeping a bed for myself and my kids depended on it.

And yes, Oreo. I loathe pretty much everything the Tories stand for, and in many ways it is galling that it is they and the Daily Mail standing up for women on this issue, but at least someone is.

Good on the Tories then for not following like sheep.

Official MoJ staff group email telling other civil servants what words and phrases should not be used. E.g. “gender critical”, “same sex attracted”, adult human female”.
The actual document is the second tweet.

twitter.com/anyabike/status/1594256187411017729?s=61&t=97rW3DgkPjJUQfMt_XA_xA

twitter.com/sacrareleges/status/1594257319289913344?s=61&t=qe2AGvrhUtf3KnQ5oifvIQ

So howls & threats mean that our politicians give in to bullies and pretend to believe lies?

Could you give a link to that MN thread Galaxy?

Very well said Grannygranby.

From tG
^ more cautious . . . services and individuals are often those who have
had less contact with trans people^
and are more aware of the harm done to the Whole trans cause and to females, by some of the males claiming to be women (even though they don’t know how that word was corrupted back in 2004).
TW like rapists, who claim to be women so they can be housed in female prisons.
TW like males claiming to be women so they have access to female hospital and mental health wards.
TW like males claiming to be women who want access to female changing rooms and having got that, demonstrate exactly how male they are!
TW like the males claiming to be women in female competitions because they can’t win as males
TW like the males claiming to be women so they can access female spaces in order to gawk at adult or children’s female bodies, regardless of the distress that may cause.
That’s without mentioning the disgraceful behaviour of TW and TRA in the cases mentioned above.
If you don’t condemn that, then you endorse it and all the VS candles in the world won’t hide your endorsement.

.

FarNorth

"There is no evidence" because there is no official wish to record or announce that evidence.
There is huge distress being caused to women prisoners, in those countries, but it is not recorded in any way.
Actual incidents of harm are recorded as involving females only.
Likewise, outwith prison, crimes committed by men identifying as transwomen are being recorded as female crimes - that is happening in the UK too. And I'm sure you've seen the UK newspaper reports of "Woman committed hideous crime......she this.....she that .
Wouldn't it be a good idea to record these things accurately so that claims of 'No Evidence' could be seen as truthful (or not).

Quoting this post because it deserves a second reading. When 'incidents' are not recorded accurately, and lie about the biological sex of the offenders, then of course there is 'no evidence'.
Why is there such fear about identifying the biological sex of offenders, could it be because it will dismantle the myth of 'no danger from self ID' ? Men are not threatened by any female self IDing as a man, the same can not be said for women of any male self IDing as a woman.

Doodledog

*And why are the other Scottish parties going along with it, apart from the Tories?*
For that matter, why do all the UK parties support it, apart from the Tories ?

I think that given the reaction to JK Rowling's perfectly reasonable essay, and the way that people like Kathleen Stock and Allison Bailey have been hounded, opposition parties are scared that their messaging will be lost in the inevitable howls of protest if they speak out against the trans lobby.

Sadly, I think you’re right about them being afraid of the violence of the trans lobby.
It’s not as if anyone can say that there aren’t many examples of that to back up what you say.

Well said, * grannygranby*.

If anyone is interested there is an archive thread on MN, which is about 'this never happens' which details reports of incidents by men in womens spaces, it covers UK and other countries.

It is really worrying that some people on gransnet, by definition women, can dismiss this with eye-rolling contempt. If it can’t be resisted here where?
What many of us are essentially concerned with is adult people with penises being allowed in spaces specifically designed for the safety of females, because it is there they undress, are asleep, ill, weakened, etc etc. just common sense. Females can be raped and impregnated.
Females identifying as males cause no risk to males. The issue there is the risks medically in attempting to transition to being male, is the drugs to arrest puberty (by definition on children) and ‘top’ surgery that is encouraged as being acceptable.

‘Gender critical’ just means understanding that gender behaviour should be broad and not in crass stereotypes the breaking of which is seen as proof that the subject is not of their sex. That is so stupid, so tail wagging the dog, and yet country after country are making these laws.and they favour men, especially criminal men, who will exploit them. We don’t have laws because everyone breaks them but in case they do.
Scotland, part of the UK, is one of these countries. It is the most essential issue to fight for the sake of our granddaughters and all women.
If you don’t think that society is biased towards men take for example the fact that in Qatar there are five men imprisoned for sodomy, twenty five women for adultery ( no men) and yet the international fury over Qatars treatment of gay men and the silence over their misogynistic treatment of women.
This is seen as common sense.
A woman MP was walking with her male comrades in Qatar last week and there was an attempt to arrest her for being out in public without her husband. One of her male colleagues lied to say she was her husband and she was allowed to be in public. This was just laughed off in the press.
Some of us fight for the rights of women not to be trampled over anymore. And if that means wearing a scarf in suffragette colours how dare any of you object.

There's some interesting research from Tyneside about refuges and service users points of view.
One of its conclusions
"There is no evidence that trans inclusion has negatively
impacted, diminished or erased these services, or the
women-only spaces within them. Both staff and cis
service users are overwhelmingly positive about trans
inclusion, and many had positive experiences of working
with trans service users, who are not viewed as posing
a threat2. A small minority of staff and service users
are more cautious about trans inclusion3, and these
services and individuals are often those who have
had less contact with trans people"

You can read it yourself
www.ncl.ac.uk/mediav8/gps/files/One%20of%20the%20Lasses%20Report.pdf