Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

A childish post from you. No surprise there.
How did either of you find out the numbers of GC?
Not everyone who believes in facts like biological truth agrees to your GC appellation.
Some find it as offensive as Cis.
But I’m sure your version of good manners won’t accept that.
You're probably right, Molly. It's another of the double standards on these threads.

Manipulating language is clearly a TRA strategy, refusing to explain terms like 'woman', 'man', or 'gender', and co-opting ones like 'mother' and 'breasts' to become somehow unisex in order to stifle debate; but it is interesting that the non-gender-critical on here still won't give us a term to describe them that isn't virtue-signalling, such as 'allies' or 'supporters', suggesting that those who don't agree with them are enemies or detractors. It makes it difficult to post when we are told that 'allies' is offensive anyway (whether we would prefer to use it or not), that 'TRA' doesn't apply (fair enough if people aren't active in the cause), but won't give us anything else to work with. Obviously 'intersectional feminist' is far too broad, and not particularly relevant anyway, so what have we got?

It's one of the many things I keep asking for, and one of the many things that continually get ignored. I don't want to give offence, but without a mutually acceptable term, it is treading on eggshells at times. Maybe that's the point, though?

But Mollygo surely the gender critical are loud and vociferous in their beliefs and they don't like trans-inclusion or intersectional feminists so why would they be on a march with them? Or at least if they were they could have brought their own signs, which they didn't.
Who has said that they 'don't like' trans-inclusion or intersectional feminists? Transpeople can be included in anything except when their maleness is a threat to vulnerable women. As for the GC bringing their own signs - what should be on them, do you think? Sorry, but I oppose MVAWAG even when the male is wearing a mask and the women and girls are gender-critical? Should strikers on an RMT picket line have banners in support of cuts to education?

And if, as is always asserted on these threads, we intersectional feminists always put men first and don't care about women how come this event was organised by intersectional feminists and transinclusive people?
No, Glorianny, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that intersectional feminists do anything, or don't care about anything. I have seen people (me included) say that your posts suggest that you put men before women, but not massive generalisations about intersectional feminists. I don't disassociate myself from them, but from The People Who Cannot Be Named (as they won't give us a name with which to name them) in their ranks.

There are regular meetings and protests. They all tend to involve threats, and violence against the women involved. By lovely people wearing masks.
Yes, but that's a bit awkward, isn't it? It must be hard to claim to be on the side of peace, love and understanding whilst that goes on in the name of trans rights. Maybe there were banners on the march about male violence against gender-critical feminists? My friend didn't mention any though - perhaps they were very very small?

Iam64

Glorianny

Mollygo

VioletSky

glorianny shoots! She scores!

The GC do not have the numbers they think.

Or they are just not going public, preferring largely anonymous platforms and talking in circles over action
🤣🤣🤣

A childish post from you. No surprise there.
How did either of you find out the numbers of GC?
Not everyone who believes in facts like biological truth agrees to your GC appellation.
Some find it as offensive as Cis.
But I’m sure your version of good manners won’t accept that.

But Mollygo surely the gender critical are loud and vociferous in their beliefs and they don't like trans-inclusion or intersectional feminists so why would they be on a march with them? Or at least if they were they could have brought their own signs, which they didn't.
And if, as is always asserted on these threads, we intersectional feminists always put men first and don't care about women how come this event was organised by intersectional feminists and transinclusive people?

Talk about divide and rule, reject other women who have different but valid views

I'm not rejecting them Iam64 I just wonder why they would castigate me on these threads for being an intersectional feminist, tell me I put men first because I believe transwomen are women, and that I put women at risk of harm, but then support a march run by women who think just as I do.
And why if the gender critical are the great supporters of women and act against violence they don't organise their own event.
Of course they are welcome to join the march. That's the nature of intersectional feminism, we accept all women.

Glorianny

Mollygo

VioletSky

glorianny shoots! She scores!

The GC do not have the numbers they think.

Or they are just not going public, preferring largely anonymous platforms and talking in circles over action
🤣🤣🤣

A childish post from you. No surprise there.
How did either of you find out the numbers of GC?
Not everyone who believes in facts like biological truth agrees to your GC appellation.
Some find it as offensive as Cis.
But I’m sure your version of good manners won’t accept that.

But Mollygo surely the gender critical are loud and vociferous in their beliefs and they don't like trans-inclusion or intersectional feminists so why would they be on a march with them? Or at least if they were they could have brought their own signs, which they didn't.
And if, as is always asserted on these threads, we intersectional feminists always put men first and don't care about women how come this event was organised by intersectional feminists and transinclusive people?

Talk about divide and rule, reject other women who have different but valid views

Galaxy

I dont care about numbers. What a weird thing to say. I dont make decisions on what I think is right based on the numbers. I would have voted leave if that was the case.

So would you also have gone on a walk organised by UKIP promoting Brexit? Because isn't that the equivalent?

I dont care about numbers. What a weird thing to say. I dont make decisions on what I think is right based on the numbers. I would have voted leave if that was the case.

Mollygo

VioletSky

glorianny shoots! She scores!

The GC do not have the numbers they think.

Or they are just not going public, preferring largely anonymous platforms and talking in circles over action
🤣🤣🤣

A childish post from you. No surprise there.
How did either of you find out the numbers of GC?
Not everyone who believes in facts like biological truth agrees to your GC appellation.
Some find it as offensive as Cis.
But I’m sure your version of good manners won’t accept that.

But Mollygo surely the gender critical are loud and vociferous in their beliefs and they don't like trans-inclusion or intersectional feminists so why would they be on a march with them? Or at least if they were they could have brought their own signs, which they didn't.
And if, as is always asserted on these threads, we intersectional feminists always put men first and don't care about women how come this event was organised by intersectional feminists and transinclusive people?

There are regular meetings and protests. They all tend to involve threats, and violence against the women involved. By lovely people wearing masks.

VioletSky

glorianny shoots! She scores!

The GC do not have the numbers they think.

Or they are just not going public, preferring largely anonymous platforms and talking in circles over action
🤣🤣🤣

A childish post from you. No surprise there.
How did either of you find out the numbers of GC?
Not everyone who believes in facts like biological truth agrees to your GC appellation.
Some find it as offensive as Cis.
But I’m sure your version of good manners won’t accept that.

Glorianny

So why aren't the gender critical who seem to think they have the monopoly on opposing violence against women out organising their own marches? Because they might have been on this march but let's be very clear this was a march against gendered violence and transinclusive. Could it possibly be that actually there aren't that many women involved and the majority of women recognise that transpeople suffer the same violence women do? There may have been individuals who are gender critical there but none of the organisations who claim to be protecting women and are gender critical were present. And the those doing the organisation are transinclusive and intersectional feminist.

Oh, for the love of all that's holy!

That would be like something out of Monty Python.

Let's be clear. People think for themselves. They can be in organisations without necessarily espousing all their policies, as policies change all the time according to the beliefs (some say whims) of those at the top (eg the Labour Party, the TUC, UCU, the SU and other organisations).

It's not just trans issues - people disagree about all sorts of policies unless they are like sheep. Leaving every time things are not going 100% as you would like is a bit like stropping off a thread or flouncing from a forum. Most people stay and argue from within if there are other things they do like. So it is perfectly possible that there are those who are gender critical (which just means they don't believe in the idea that 'living as' or 'feeling like' a woman based on gendered ideas can possibly mean that a man can become one - it does not mean anti-trans ) who want to stop gendered violence. That doesn't man that they approve of violence against transpeople. Or non-gendered violence.

The so-called 'gender critical' don't have horns, you know. You wouldn't spot them if they were marching alongside you holding one half of your banner

glorianny shoots! She scores!

The GC do not have the numbers they think.

Or they are just not going public, preferring largely anonymous platforms and talking in circles over action

So why aren't the gender critical who seem to think they have the monopoly on opposing violence against women out organising their own marches? Because they might have been on this march but let's be very clear this was a march against gendered violence and transinclusive. Could it possibly be that actually there aren't that many women involved and the majority of women recognise that transpeople suffer the same violence women do? There may have been individuals who are gender critical there but none of the organisations who claim to be protecting women and are gender critical were present. And the those doing the organisation are transinclusive and intersectional feminist.

Sorry Galaxy. That was to Glorianny in case it wasn't obvious. And yes - I am also in the LP, and the same selective agreement with policies applies.

Did I say differently?

I was responding to your ludicrous claim that there were no gender critical feminists there. My friend was there, for a start, and as I say, you can't generalise about the others. One can demonstrate against violence and gendered violence without buying into the trans agenda.

And please - the 'did you not bother' thing is getting really tired. You are not talking to a class of children - posters on here are adults and are not obliged to 'bother' to do anything on your sayso.
But yes, I am well aware of the policies of the organisations you mentioned. As a trades unionist who works in a university I would be, wouldn't I? And funnily enough, I do not support everything in all of this policies. Many people don't, and I find it strange that anyone would think that in any way odd.

Did people have different thoughts whilst on the Mmarch. Goodness me.
I have just trudged round delivering leaflets for the labour party, I dont agree on their current position on womens spaces but I was still pushing the leaflets through the door.

Doodledog

Do you really think that everyone in unions affiliated to the TUC, or everyone in the SU (membership by default when you sign up for a course of study) is in favour of women losing rights? Of course they aren't.

Many are like me - broadly left-leaning women who do care about transpeople, but who are not willing to set aside women's rights because a group of people want something that is biologically impossible.

Did you bother to read any of the links Doodledog? This was a transinclusive march against gendered violence. The organisers were pretty clear about it. I admit one or two of the women might not have signed up to all of the policies but those who didn't weren't demonstrating their ideas, whereas the intersectional feminists and trade unionists were organising against street violence and gendered violence. They are the activists they were the organisers and their policies are pretty clear.

Do you really think that everyone in unions affiliated to the TUC, or everyone in the SU (membership by default when you sign up for a course of study) is in favour of women losing rights? Of course they aren't.

Many are like me - broadly left-leaning women who do care about transpeople, but who are not willing to set aside women's rights because a group of people want something that is biologically impossible.

I don't think there were any on the Reclaim the Night march

Oh there were .

Galaxy

To be honest the high profile gender critical feminists that I am aware of tend to have a background in campaigning against domestic violence, campaigning for women in prison, etc.

I don't think there were any on the Reclaim the Night march in fact all of the organisations involved could be described as Trans-friendly
TUC policy on trans-inclusion www.tuc.org.uk/resource/how-be-good-trans-ally-work
Newcastle University Students Union on trans policy nusu.co.uk/news/article/trans-policy22
And the wonderful young people of It Happens Here who take a feminist intersectional attitude and are working to eliminate sexual violence nusu.co.uk/news/article/trans-policy22

Wyllow3

Yes, we can, Galaxy, and I do. A lot, because in the Labour Party we have to discuss them. and I actually take a more middle of the road position.

but read this

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-tyne-63798058?fbclid=IwAR0cBs_l8e6GawasyQ2jxFvzHcxg6f8_XZeyepQNtAd0y26bvehzJw9g-ic

its men booing a demonstration in Newcastle of women who had a demonstration asking for protection and freedoms at night. How many of us knew about it, or similar actions?

We have endless trans threads and of course I deplore the "bad examples" and do not support them being swept under the carpet in anyway.

But day after day hundreds of women are experiencing domestic and street violence, and I see no equivalent and proportional outcry.

I knew about the march and joined it. Thanks to the TUC women who organise it. You can read a positive take about what happened here thetab.com/uk/newcastle/2022/11/30/get-your-misogyny-off-my-body-reclaim-the-night-protest-returns-to-newcastle-58382
One group of (possibly) intoxicated men on a short section didn't detract from a positive march that highlighted the real issues of violence against women.

To be honest the high profile gender critical feminists that I am aware of tend to have a background in campaigning against domestic violence, campaigning for women in prison, etc.

A friend of mine was on the Newcastle march, and said that there were 3 men who heckled them, with one of them booing. As the procession marched past them, a couple of others joined in. She thought they were drunk. It's horrible, but nothing like as bad as the headline makes out. There was no organised resistance to the march, and no widespread booing - it was a couple of drunks making a nuisance of themselves.

Anyway, I'm not minimising it at all. But nor do I see the fact that this is not all over the news as significant, or as a sign that we should take our collective eye off the ball where legal changes are concerned. We really can't sit back without a fight and see women subsumed into a class of people that includes all comers, regardless of what else is happening.

Yes, we can, Galaxy, and I do. A lot, because in the Labour Party we have to discuss them. and I actually take a more middle of the road position.

but read this

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-tyne-63798058?fbclid=IwAR0cBs_l8e6GawasyQ2jxFvzHcxg6f8_XZeyepQNtAd0y26bvehzJw9g-ic

its men booing a demonstration in Newcastle of women who had a demonstration asking for protection and freedoms at night. How many of us knew about it, or similar actions?

We have endless trans threads and of course I deplore the "bad examples" and do not support them being swept under the carpet in anyway.

But day after day hundreds of women are experiencing domestic and street violence, and I see no equivalent and proportional outcry.

Fully 50 per cent of the trans prisoners currently incarcerated in Scottish prisons only discovered their new gender identity after they were charged.

Is that 50% of trans in any Scottish prison or just in female prisons?
If it’s just trans incarcerated in female prisons, what crimes had had the others committed? (the other 50%, who didn’t change after being charged, but were already TW?)

I can manage to think about the issues relating to the fire brigade and single sex spaces at the same time. And what to have for tea.

I object to a group of women using those colours as if they represented all feminists.

They dont. they being to all of us.

I object to the issue of male violence and abuse against women getting lost in yet another trans thread. Look at the stuff just come out of the report on the London fire Brigade. Get a sense of proportion, please.