Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

Galaxy

Those notions of femininity are enforced by the concepts of 'dress like a woman' and 'live like a woman' So perhaps the non gender critical could think about the damage they are doing.
Also just as an aside I dont know if many people on here actually see themselves as gender critical, I do, but I think many people are just aware of say the unfairness of men in female sport without being gender critical.

Could you explain this please Galaxy? I don't proscribe how a woman should look and I recognise that many women choose not to meet the normal considerations of what is considered feminine. So what damage am I actually causing?
Ah I see sport again!
As I said before best acquaint yourself with how black women feel about equality in women's sport www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/9/28/black-women-athletes-are-undervalued-and-undermined

They are heartbreaking aren't they Rosie. They're worse off than when they started.

Excellent post, (11:03:53) Doodledog.

Meh

I know you all love me really

VioletSky
Have you had time to read my posts showing Shape Shifter's words?
Or the tweets I posted from Sinead Watson and Debbie Hayton?
Have you any comments about them?

VioletSky
I’ve come to the conclusion that you really don’t like women, do you. Just because your mother was a bitch, doesn’t mean we all are.

Labour MP, (Shadow Leader of the House of Commons) Thangam Debbonaire showing support for women’s rights. It’s a pity more in her Party don’t.

twitter.com/roseveniceallan/status/1593255943457816578?s=61&t=7Xx6jyfqB0DWFIxvYsqtdw

It's really not all about you, VS.

You have posted about your MH issues many times, usually to guilt trip people into 'being kind' (ie not fighting back against your passive aggressive posts). As I understand what you've said, you suffered from Graves, which is something I also have. That is why it stuck in my mind, although until you posted about it I had no idea was linked to MH issues. I have seen several doctors and consultants about mine, and it was never mentioned once. Still, you live and learn - it's one of the good things about online discourse, IMO.

I don't think anyone has linked your neurodiversity to anything, have they? But in the kindest possible way, this is exactly what I was getting at when I said that you hold things over the rest of us to claim special dispensation. There is such a lot to remember when replying to you that people are going to get things wrong sometimes, and we should all be judged by the words on the page, and not expect allowances to be made for things that others don't necessarily either know about or understand.

I agree with MS that a feminist does not necessarily agree with every woman on the planet. By that token, the fact that you disagree with women on this thread must invalidate your feminism too. As thinking adults, feminists can choose whether to agree with women, men, or make up their own minds. The thing that makes them feminists is that they support other women when they (the other women) are suffering from discrimination or worse.

Protecting other women from men who want to share prison cells, or watch young girls undress is all part of that feminism. Not allowing men into women's spaces will inevitably mean that many innocent men will be assumed guilty, but the decent ones are ok with that, as they understand the reasoning and also want to protect women. It is, therefore, not unfeminist to object to TW being in our spaces.

VioletSky
A feminist would call you out for what you are: a deluded fantasist. Meaning: you see things that aren’t there.

VioletSky
I’m old enough to have been a feminist before the word was coined. Just because we are both women I don’t see why we/I shouldn’t call you out over your views.

These stories are heartbreaking, and there are so many more. People who bitterly regret the surgeries they've had, and the lifelong dependence on cross sex hormones. Many who, if not for the internet and positive glee of the 'affirmers', might have responded to talking therapies to at least see if that could help alleviate their distress. For any other type of equally radical, impacting action most friends or family would at least counsel 'are you sure?' and maybe encourage 'take your time, no need to rush such a big decision'. And that's for decisions that could be reversed at a later stage.
As for so much it is often a case of 'follow the money'. Especially in the USA they are making fortunes out of surgeries and lifelong dependence on drugs. Unscrupulous doctors and pharmaceutical companies rubbing their hands together in glee.

Glorianny

Well I could add another round of applause for that diatribe but I'd have to add that all those posting GC opinions should take careful note of it.
Because there are few intersectional feminists on GN and as far as I know we have never used any of the language referred to.
We have been called Trans Activists
We have been called homophobic
Our views have been misrepresented and our words have been twisted.
We have been called misogynistic
We have been told we don't care about women and we put men first.
The reason for this? Because we recognise that any policy which assumes women can be identified or recognised simply by their external appearance necessarily impacts on what is found acceptable for women. That transwomen therefore are women. That the law as it stands is adequate and provides protection for female spaces whilst enabling trans people to live safely in society.
Society is now finding increasing numbers of attacks on women who look different- especially butch.
So perhaps the gender critical should consider the wider outcomes for women, and how their views on trans people impact on what is already a difficult environment for women who choose not to conform to accepted norms of femininity. www.refinery29.com/en-gb/gender-policing-single-sex-spaces-uk

Yup

It is apparently OK to say the gross things if you are gender critical

I'm not adding feminist any more

A feminist would think my views matter

Certainly wouldn't tell me I must be a bad TA they wouldnt want around their grandchildren or use the fact I am not neurotypical to suggest I am mentally ill. Very ableist. Feminists certainly do not use abuse tactics to try to shut you down.

So GC it is from now on unless respect is earned back

Shape Shifter's story is very sad. He really is 'in the wrong body'.

How can it be ok for children to be encouraged to go down this path, and how is it not considered abuse?

* making similar points as each other, not as Shape Shifter.

Even the Guardian which was once the bastion of feminism wants to cancel women.

reaction.life/the-growing-exodus-of-feminist-writers-from-left-wing-media/

Glorianny I'll leave aside the 'diatribe' jibe; but can you please explain the logic of this?
. . . . any policy which assumes women can be identified or recognised simply by their external appearance necessarily impacts on what is found acceptable for women. That transwomen therefore are women.

I understand (but disagree with) the first bit. I think that gender norms have been breaking down slowly but steadily for years. It is easy to see across three generations of my own family, and I'm sure that when the little ones grow up the differences between them and my children's generation will be even more apparent. I can also see that it is only because people can tell the sex of others that any remaining strictures can be applied, but I would argue that it makes far more sense to fight that than to mistreat people like Shape Shifter. But anyway, so far so good. What I don't understand is how you jump from that to 'therefore TWAW'. That just doesn't compute.

You won't be surprised to hear that I also disagree with That the law as it stands is adequate and provides protection for female spaces whilst enabling trans people to live safely in society. Of course it isn't. The law is confused and confusing, and too few people (me included) know the difference between a Stonewall policy and an actual law. When this happens, people tend to err on the side of caution and fight shy of doing sensible things (such as refuse entry to women-only swimming sessions to men) in case they are accidentally offending. I'm thinking here of the man who wormed his way into the 'women, mothers and toddlers' session my friend attended, whose genitals were clearly visible through (and around) his bathing costume, and of the young man who made all the fuss about going into a Monsoon dressing room to try on a prom dress. The law may have been in place on both of those occasions, but the mythology around trans issues often trumps it.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-593252-screenshot-20221114-223559.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-422079-screenshot-20221117-144544.png

Here are posts from detransitioner Sinead Watson and transwoman Debbie Hayton, making similar points about transwomen.

Glorianny did you see my posts about Shape Shifter and other detransitioners ?

He believes that people who need counselling, and/or who have mental health problems, are being guided into a trans identity which won't help them at all.

VioletSky

Erm I dont know what that means but I better get back to work or FC will tell me all about how she never got to sit down as a TA and I will feel bad about stopping for a sandwich

I don’t have time to post when I’m teaching. I suppose it’s different for a TA, but yes, you’d better get back to work.

well we have been called transphobic. Our views have been misrepresented and our words have been twisted. We have been told we don't care about transwomen and transmen.

Did you miss the discussion in terms of personal care where there's a request to be attended too by females only Glorianny? The problems of assuming "women can be identified or recognised simply by their external appearance" was discussed at great length by all contributors.

Those notions of femininity are enforced by the concepts of 'dress like a woman' and 'live like a woman' So perhaps the non gender critical could think about the damage they are doing.
Also just as an aside I dont know if many people on here actually see themselves as gender critical, I do, but I think many people are just aware of say the unfairness of men in female sport without being gender critical.

Yet you seem able to identify sex very accurately Glorianny.
It's an amazing skill you have.

Well I could add another round of applause for that diatribe but I'd have to add that all those posting GC opinions should take careful note of it.
Because there are few intersectional feminists on GN and as far as I know we have never used any of the language referred to.
We have been called Trans Activists
We have been called homophobic
Our views have been misrepresented and our words have been twisted.
We have been called misogynistic
We have been told we don't care about women and we put men first.
The reason for this? Because we recognise that any policy which assumes women can be identified or recognised simply by their external appearance necessarily impacts on what is found acceptable for women. That transwomen therefore are women. That the law as it stands is adequate and provides protection for female spaces whilst enabling trans people to live safely in society.
Society is now finding increasing numbers of attacks on women who look different- especially butch.
So perhaps the gender critical should consider the wider outcomes for women, and how their views on trans people impact on what is already a difficult environment for women who choose not to conform to accepted norms of femininity. www.refinery29.com/en-gb/gender-policing-single-sex-spaces-uk

Goodness, I've just got back after being out all morning, and caught up. Doodledog I have to echo the praise for your sensible, reasoned and fair post. Well done you, you've expressed what so many of us feel.
👏👏👏

Thanks for the supportive comments and PMs. They are appreciated.