Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

Because transmen will be using female facilities so challenging a man will be more difficult .

I'm pretty sure that transmen who pass as men would continue to use men's facilities.
Transmen pose no threat at all to actual men.
If they are in hospital or prison, tho, they should be in accommodation for their biological sex.

Transwomen who pass would likely also continue to use women's facilities, tho I'd prefer other arrangements be made for them.
Transwomen who don't pass should use the men's and men should Be Kind.

Transwomen are of the Male sex that's what it has to do with them. More assaults against women happen in mixed sex changing rooms than in single sex changing rooms. It's why some of the companies who have implemented mixed sex changing facilities had to revert to single sex because of various incidents.

Yes transmen should be in female prisons, and as far as I am aware are not housed in the Male estate for obvious reasons.

The fact that there is no disagreement (is there?) that transmen should be in female prisons shows that there are undisputed differences in the way in which men and women behave, and that men are far more likely to be violent. If that were not the case, surely there would be arguments for transmen going to male jails.

It does seem like the trans lobby wants it both ways - women have no need to fear men when they are with female-bodied women in women's jails, but there is a need for female-bodied women to fear the same sort of men in men's jails when those women are transmen.

To me, the obvious conclusion is the common-sense one - that women are at risk from men, regardless of either's so-called 'gender'. The risk is from people of the male sex to people of the female one, however any of them 'present'.

FarNorth

^Because transmen will be using female facilities so challenging a man will be more difficult .^

I'm pretty sure that transmen who pass as men would continue to use men's facilities.
Transmen pose no threat at all to actual men.
If they are in hospital or prison, tho, they should be in accommodation for their biological sex.

Transwomen who pass would likely also continue to use women's facilities, tho I'd prefer other arrangements be made for them.
Transwomen who don't pass should use the men's and men should Be Kind.

So you expect men to have transmen in their facilities but don't want transwomen in the women's. Shows a distinct lack of equality doesn't it?
This is interesting
journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0038026120934697

Hurray! You want equality so . . .
. I’m fine with transmen being in female prisons because they are female.
I’m not OK with TW being in female prisons, because they are male.
Importantly, if the TW is imprisoned in a male prison for rape, the likelihood of him being attacked because of his crime should NOT be used as a sob story excuse for incarcerating him with females.

So you expect men to have transmen in their facilities but don't want transwomen in the women's. Shows a distinct lack of equality doesn't it?

It's not my preference, it's what will likely happen if there are no other arrangements for them.
What problems do you see for men, from transmen in their facilities?

Equality is not always the best thing.
Equity is a better approach, to try to make things fair for everyone e.g. equally safe for everyone.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-440508-screenshot-20221121-235623.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-172613-screenshot-20221121-235656.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202211/medium-779138-screenshot-20221121-235811.png

Here's a recent set of tweets from former transman Sinead Watson.
Sinead works as a counselor with Genspect and speaks with many young people who have gone some way with transitioning and now have doubts.
Sinead speaks out because she knows that other young people are being failed, as she was, by those who ought to help them.

Now, the Scottish Government wants to fail them in an even worse way by removing the requirement for any medical diagnosis at all, rather than make it more thorough.

.

Glory be - putting responsibility on other women for not being as clever as you are gloryb. You can travel extensively but have never been subjected to the kind of behaviour other women posting here have. You conclude this is because you don’t attract these predatory men. Staggeringly bonkers

Tbf, I haven't encountered problems either.

However, I do know what others have experienced including a friend who, at 18, was sexually assaulted by a GP.
For a long time, she didn't realise it was an assault, but was mystified by why he did what he did.

I also, of course, know about the findings of assaults in mixed-sex changing areas which were, I'm sure, carefully designed aiming to avoid that sort of thing.

In the late 70’s every women’s group I was involved with found at least 50% of women present had been sexually harrsssed, groped, assaulted in adult life. A disproportionate number sexually abused as children. These groups were typical, women in professional employment, with fathers in ‘respectable’ professional careers

You just have to read Everyday Sexism to see how commonplace it is - a lot of the time women and girls barely recognise that it is harassment/assault, as it is so much a part of their everyday experience.

www.amazon.co.uk/Everyday-Sexism-Laura-Bates/dp/147114920X/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&tag=gransnetforum-21&qid=1669148328&sr=8-1

Thanks for that link Doodledog, just went to check it out and see the audible version is included in my membership, so free. When I've finished my current listen this will be next.

Thanks for the link Doodledog. Like Rosie, I’ll be listening to it.
When I heard the sample it was interesting that men were disgusted and to hear that ‘men’s feminism was awakened’ to what girls and women go through.
It mentions how much worse things have go for campaigners agains sexism since 2013-with the threats of rape they receive, (there are other things that we’ve already heard about e.g. threats to JKR).
It mentions that aspects of patriarchy that men can choose to replicate or resist.
I’m looking forward to hearing the whole book, but some TW who are actually male
are already choosing to replicate the negative aspects of patriarchy -and worse, their behaviour is supported by some females.

Iam64

In the late 70’s every women’s group I was involved with found at least 50% of women present had been sexually harrsssed, groped, assaulted in adult life. A disproportionate number sexually abused as children. These groups were typical, women in professional employment, with fathers in ‘respectable’ professional careers

Yes because the primary places women are assaulted is in their homes and the perpetrator is usually closely related to the woman. Abuse by strangers in public places is less of a problem and yet this is what is being focussed on.
I also remember in the '70s that women were encouraged to be strong and not accept victimhood. This culminated in the Reclaim the Streets marches. Where is that resilience today?

That’s what we’re doing.

Being strong and not accepting the victimisation imposed upon us by violent and abusive transactivists.

Why aren’t you standing with us🤔

Abuse by strangers in public places is less of a problem and yet this is what is being focussed on.
Really Glorybe?
So you feel abuse of females in public places, should not be dealt with because it is ‘less of a problem’ in your view, though obviously not for the victims?

The resilience you speak of-is that not how you view the actions of of these females?

Those females standing up for females in the face of male cheats,
Or
Females standing up against males who take advantage of saying “I’m a woman so you can’t keep me out of your safe spaces.”
Or
Females standing up against those males who say, “I’m a woman do you don’t have the right to say you don’t want intimate treatment from me.”

That’s resilience in action!

Is that not good enough for you?

Yes thankyou Lathyrus. We are saying no. We dont consent.

I also dont really understand the being stronger thing. What do you mean. Do you think 'being strong' stops people being assaulted?

One or two posters on here should read some of the many articles on Unherd by the brilliant trans woman Debbie Hayton - who, whilst having fully transitioned herself, fully supports the idea of single SEX spaces and the banning of trans women from female sport. She freely acknowledges that autogynephilia is the cause of her wanting to be a trans women - and this is the case for many genuine trans women. I have some serious difficulty in believing we have had an explosion all of a sudden of people who are trans. The stories of de-transitioners are enough to make one weep - and do not get me started on the subject of teenage lesbians being convinced by others that they are really a straight boy in the wrong body. Lawsuits have already started on both sides of the pond - this is the medical scandal of the 21st century and already organisations including the NHS in the UK are rowing back on the trans ideology, especially when it comes to under 18s. What about the case of a so-called trans woman on a women's ward in hospital who raped a woman? The hospital denied it could have happened "because there were no men on the ward" - it took cctv and the testimony of concerned staff to get this crime dealt with. And this is just one amongst many cases.

Glory - you’re jumping to the wrong conclusion again. Of course, child sexual abuse is more likely to take place in a domestic arena, school or similar. The adult women weren’t sexually harassed or assaulted in their homes, it was in the workplace, the pub, the queue for cinema etc.
occasionally, maybe you could remember you aren’t the only poster with an understanding of women’s recent experience

Ok, Glorianny. How do you suggest that women stand up and resist having our spaces removed and the very notion of womanhood erased?

Instead of victim-blaming, maybe your much-vaunted feminist credentials could be put to making constructive suggestions, bearing in mind that in the 70s there was not openly violent resistance to women’s resistance in the way there is today, and that protest of the ‘march through the streets’ variety is not as easy to organise or as likely to remain peaceful as it was 50 years ago.

Nowadays women crowdfund, find spokeswomen, lobby parliament, use social media to raise awareness and so on. Consciousness-raising local meetings and earnest student societies just don’t cut it now, and anyway are often picketed by TRAs or cancelled by anti-feminist councils. Marches are broken up by police - look what happened when women marched to protest about Sarah Everard.

I look expect to be ignored or get a sarcastic response to a tiny part of my post; but if you could actually act in solidarity with women and post a useful suggestion instead of the constant negativity towards anything feminist that is suggested, it would be good to see.

Your suggestion seems to be that we just submit and embrace our erasure.

Well if you'd bothered to read any of the things I have linked to you would have read a bit about how women on Tyneside felt about transwomen in shelters (this was the service users speaking) and so would be aware that a two level service with trans welcoming shelters is fine for most women but a cis women's service would be advisable for some. Which pretty much tallies with the law as it stands.
Toilets, single sex and mixed individual cubicles seem to work pretty well and that seems to be what is happening in new buildings and renovations.
Changing rooms would seem to require the same. With larger ones for families, wheelchair users etc.

As I have said quite frequently any other sorts of restrictions based on a person's appearance would do far more harm to women forcing them to adopt some commonly agreed style and setting gender norms back to a time when women were expected to dress in a "feminine" manner.
I have absolutely no doubt that some of the opposition to transpeople comes from groups who would be delighted to see this sort of restriction on women. They are gaining ground in many countries and the ideas they support will do nothing to create more equality for women.

I think I was also criticised for not wanting medical intervention for GRCs. Let's be very clear about this,. This does not mean transpeople will not seek medical help, it means they will not have to pay the fees many of them are unable to afford for doctor's certificates. The two are different issues.

Glorianny did you read my post, earlier on this page, about detransitioners who wish they had had more 'medical intervention' in the way of sensitive counselling rather than speedy affirmation followed by hormone medication and/or surgery?

A few detransitioners speak out about this, and do so because they know they are not isolated cases.

Glorianny do you really think it's a good idea to abandon medical help because of cost?
Let's say someone has an eye problem, meaning they can't see. They might be able to claim benefits because of that. Evidence will be needed, however, of medical diagnosis and of treatment available.
Should the system be changed so that any costs involved in that can be avoided, and benefits given automatically?
Thus disregarding the chance of the person being helped by treatment?