Scarf in Suffragette colours not allowed in Scottish Parliament.

After all transmen never get discussed because admitting that transmen would be using the same facilities as women even though they look like men and that might make those facilities open to other men is never to be mentioned.

Women want female-only places.
Women are not asking for male-only places for men. Why would they?
Men are not at risk from transmen (females) so it seems men don't care if transmen are in their facilities. Fine.

And I'm told I'm the one who doesn't care about women????
Yes-you said it and since you believe what you say . . .
As long as you refuse to condemn the actions of the TW and TRA who have and still do attack females and all the other things I’ve mentioned, your care for females will be in question.

As long as you put the rights of males before the rights of females, it will be true that you can’t claim that you totally care about females.

Transwomen are male not female.
I’m happy to discuss the needs of males under the guise of transwomen, but whilst you put their needs above those of females you can’t honestly claim to care for females.

Btw, it's clear from your posts, Glorianny that you do really know what is meant by 'female' & 'male', and by 'woman' & 'man'.

I suppose saying I think transwomen should be in women's spaces doesn't have quite the same effect does it?

As there is no way of knowing who is a transwoman and who is a man pretending, and as they are all male, I see no problem with using their correct name of men .

There's some very interesting use of misinformation being used to spread hate in some of the articles which go with that photo.

I'm just catching up with the thread.
The photo you refer to Glorianny clearly shows a mature man playing in a Gaelic football match for young women.
I don't need any further information, or mis-information, to know that that shouldn't be happening.

One question Glorianny which I don't think you've ever answered........ what precisely defines 'living as a woman', and 'presenting as a woman' ? If you could explain without using circular arguments that would be great. I'm not at all sure I would qualify but fortunately I have the biology so don't have to demonstrate by other means.

So you blame Stonewall for the discrimination the gender critical are creating. Wow but then I suppose expecting you to take responsibility for the results of your views is expecting too much. After all transmen never get discussed because admitting that transmen would be using the same facilities as women even though they look like men and that might make those facilities open to other men is never to be mentioned.
You see I wouldn't mind your views quite so much if they were logically and thoroughly thought out, but they're not.
So if you restrict facilities to what you consider to be accurate.
that is
transwomen are men and must use men's facilities
then logically transmen are women and must use women's.
Which means people who look like men will be walking into women's spaces.

Meantime the assertion that you can always tell a transwoman, and a transwoman is a man, causes harm to women, who get shouted at and told to get out of toilets and changing rooms because of the way they look . But this is nothing to do with people who post constantly about the dangers of transwomen in toilets.
And I'm told I'm the one who doesn't care about women????

As for the lines between male and female being blurred I do wonder how that can be? Don't you believe it is impossible to change sex? So aren't those lines immovable? And if you are saying that you want men and women to be clearly identifiable isn't that the same as saying that you want gender norms enforced?

Doodledog

Sorry, Rosie. We cross-posted and I hadn't seen your post.

But yeah, great minds think alike

Don't apologise, you posted 16 seconds later and you said it far more clearly than I did, but yes great minds

Transwomen are male.

And the evidence is that the gender critical who insist it is possible to recognise a transwoman by her appearance are causing problems for women who don't conform to the gender norms.

What evidence of that have you seen on here?
You are the one who uses language like butch. You are the one who talks about ‘gender norms’.
How can you have a ‘norm’ if you think males and females are the same?
What exactly do you mean?
If you say you can’t recognise someone by their appearance, what appearance are you saying they are or aren’t displaying?
Transwomen are male.
It’s not a matter of belief, like Father Christmas, it’s a matter of fact.
Transwomen are not female whatever they look like.

Sorry, Rosie. We cross-posted and I hadn't seen your post.

But yeah, great minds think alike

Your last paragraph is exactly what I was trying to say Doodledog

Glorianny

Galaxy

I believe gender is oppressive and regressive and damages both men and women.

Perhaps it does but in the real world it is how many judgements are made. And the evidence is that the gender critical who insist it is possible to recognise a transwoman by her appearance are causing problems for women who don't conform to the gender norms. Perhaps you could explain to me how exactly you see your gender free society developing, because to my mind the thing which would most free us from gender oppression is the idea that we cannot judge who is a man or a woman from their appearance, and nothing in the gender critical concept does anything to enable that, quite the reverse. There as been a rise in the number of women being shouted at because they do not look feminine enough.

If people couldn't tell who is male and who is female there would be no possibility of safe spaces.

It is not remotely indefensible or gaslighting to say that you are permitting men to access women's spaces simply because you believe them to be women. Gaslighting is when someone is told that they are imagining something that is the truth - not what they believe to be the truth. The lights were flickering, and the woman was told she was imagining it. That is the whole point. You believe that male-bodied people are women if they say they are. That does not make it true.

I can't say how a gender-free society could develop, and there is no obligation on me (or anyone else) to do so. What we are saying is that the idea that people have to look/behave/whatever it is that you refuse to explain in a particular way in order to be a man or a woman is, in Galaxy's words, 'oppressive and regressive'. There is more to being a man or a woman than that. Women have spent the past ages fighting to free ourselves from gender oppression and we don't want it back, thanks.

I do recognise your beliefs. I just don't share them. Why does that mean that I am wrong, or that I should change my language when I speak to you? What gives you the final word?

As for a refusal to recognise your beliefs being unfeminist and undemocratic - that is ridiculous and offensive (as you intended it to be). If I refuse to recognise beliefs about eugenics, or refuse to accept that incels have a point, does that make me unfeminist or undemocratic? Why is it not undemocratic and unfeminist that you don't recognise that women are adult human females? Anyone can disagree with anyone else - it would be undemocratic if that were not the case.

Just because you think something does not make it true, and it is not wrong, bullying, unfeminist, undemocratic, intolerant or any of your other insults of anyone to say so.

If it is the case that women are really being told they don't look feminine enough (not something I have ever come across or heard about other than from you), then that is something that needs to be addressed. It does not, however, mean that allowing the whole concept of womanhood to include all comers should be the remedy, or that the rights of all women should be sacrificed in order to make things better for the tiny number who suffer in that way.

In fact, if the lines between male and female had not been so blurred lately there may have been even fewer incidences. As it is, many women are understandably fearful of finding men in their spaces and are maybe more likely to challenge someone who looks as though they may be in them nefariously. That doesn't make it right, but it may be a side-effect of the Stonewall agenda.

Glorianny you have said many times that There as been a rise in the number of women being shouted at because they do not look feminine enough. in which I think you're using the term women to refer to biological females? Do you think this upsurge is in any way accountable to the belief that there is an increase in the number of transwomen ie biological males who are using single sex spaces? There have always been women, females for the avoidance of confusion, who have not been stereotypical in looks and/or presentation, but there were not accounts of them receiving abuse.
Given the dictionary definition of woman has always been adult human female, I don't know where you get the idea it has always meant a feeling in someone's head.

A woman is an adult female Glorianny. Women is the plural of woman. Transwomen are not women.

Clothes make up short or long hair nothing to do with sex. Stop saying sexist nonsense such as dress like a woman, live like a woman.
There are a rising number of lesbians who are saying transitioning was caused by homophobia and wanting to escape the pressures placed on women, particularly those who present in a particular way. Give a really clear message that women can present in any way they like, it doesnt mean they are a man.
Have a look at the gendered nonsense aimed at children at all stages of their lives.

Galaxy

I believe gender is oppressive and regressive and damages both men and women.

Perhaps it does but in the real world it is how many judgements are made. And the evidence is that the gender critical who insist it is possible to recognise a transwoman by her appearance are causing problems for women who don't conform to the gender norms. Perhaps you could explain to me how exactly you see your gender free society developing, because to my mind the thing which would most free us from gender oppression is the idea that we cannot judge who is a man or a woman from their appearance, and nothing in the gender critical concept does anything to enable that, quite the reverse. There as been a rise in the number of women being shouted at because they do not look feminine enough.

I believe gender is oppressive and regressive and damages both men and women.

Smileless2012

You may believe transwomen are women Glorianny and they may believe so too, but they're not, they are men and saying so isn't twisting your words, it's a biological fact.

Smileless You know that, because it’s a biological fact. No need to twist truth.

Glorianny believing a male is a female doesn’t make it true, doesn’t change facts, but certainly does need to twist the truth to make it correct.

No men in womens spaces. People cant change sex.
I am entitled to say this because my belief is protected by law.

Smileless2012

You may believe transwomen are women Glorianny and they may believe so too, but they're not, they are men and saying so isn't twisting your words, it's a biological fact.

Men and women are gender terms Smileless2012 they are not biological terms.

Lathyrus

VioletSky

I'm still laughing about how mad people get when they are reported

When I've done it I've been honest about it

We joined a forum with guidelines

Don't break the guidelines an you can't be reported

Simples

When you’ve finished laughing, perhaps you might like to condemn the vile post that compares rape to a online disagreement.🤔

Or perhaps you don’t think that’s a vile comparison?

Lathyrus I openly apologise for what I said. Sometimes the gaslighting on these threads gets to me. And in this case I responded in a way that was unacceptable.

It still is indefensible to accuse me of permitting men to access women's spaces when I believe those people to be women. Still it's what I expect now. Because it isn't being gender critical to refuse to recognise another person's beliefs it's plainly a lack of tolerance.. Which should worry all of us, because refusing to acknowledge one person's views have any value is neither feminist nor democratic.

I know gender critical people believe transwomen are men. I don't it's as simple as that.
So they are quite entitled to say I think transwomen should be in women's spaces (although not all women's spaces, as the law allows). They are not entitled to say I think men are.

Comparing rape to an on line disagreement is indeed vile.

I’m still reeling that glory also easily accuses those of us who disagree with her, of denigrating a group of people by refusing to use their proper name. How is that less acceptable than calling me a cis woman

VioletSky

I'm still laughing about how mad people get when they are reported

When I've done it I've been honest about it

We joined a forum with guidelines

Don't break the guidelines an you can't be reported

Simples

When you’ve finished laughing, perhaps you might like to condemn the vile post that compares rape to a online disagreement.🤔

Or perhaps you don’t think that’s a vile comparison?

You may believe transwomen are women Glorianny and they may believe so too, but they're not, they are men and saying so isn't twisting your words, it's a biological fact.

You see there is the twisting. Because what you describe as men I believe are women. They are I suppose transwomen. Which leads me to wonder why you can't refer to them as transwomen, even if you consider they are men. I suppose it is because it makes me sound so much worse.
Well there's the rub. To me, a woman is a woman. A transwoman is a man who 'lives as a woman', although it's difficult to know what that means. A man is an adult human male. A medical doctor would (I assume) define men and women in terms of their biology, too.

I have asked you directly to differentiate these groups but you have refused to do so, other than to say 'a woman is anyone who says she is a woman' or similar. I'm sorry, but 'because you believe something' doesn't make it true, and because I use the words 'man' and 'woman' in the biological, scientific and customary way does not mean that I use the terms to 'make things sound worse'. That is all in your head.

Unfortunately it is a method used by people who want to eliminate or denigrate a group of people they don't like or care about. Refuse to use their proper name, call them something which misrepresents them or belittles them.
Maybe, but you can't extrapolate from that that I am doing anything of the sort. I am not. I use the terms as described above, as do most people. I am not the one who is out of step. Unless you tell me how you differentiate between a man, a man in a dress and a transwoman, and what 'living as a woman' actually means, I don't understand your lexis, so it is difficult to talk with nuance. All I can do is stick to common parlance, which suits 99% of English-speaking people. Are you saying that the whole language should change to suit you, when you know perfectly well that the mangling of the language is one of the things to which people object strongly?

If only you could at least use their proper name. But I suppose saying I think transwomen should be in women's spaces doesn't have quite the same effect does it? And isn't actually misogynistic. Over-dramatic language such as 'If only you could use their proper name' is pointless. There is no proper name without a proper definition, which you refuse to provide. I understand what a transwoman is, but when I refer to someone who is in a woman's safe space for nefarious reasons, I am not referring to transwomen - I mean a man, so the proper term is 'man'. No?

So I think my case is proven.
Well again, I'm afraid that you thinking something is not enough to make it so. By 'your case' do you mean that I have called you a misogynist? I've lost track a bit, but I thought that was the accusation. The fact remains that I have said that some of the things you post are misogynistic, but I don't think I have said that you are a misogynist. It's possible I suppose, but that's not the sort of thing I would usually say, so I doubt it.

It's OK to castigate a woman who disagrees with you.
It's OK to label her misogynistic
It's OK to twist and misrepresent her views to prove your point.
It's OK not to acknowledge or even recognise that she has real concerns about the way in which women are already being targeted because they don't conform to gender stereotypes.

I refute that. I have no need to twist your words as IMO what you say about men being women is simply untrue and many of your explanations of why you think so are simply lacking in any sort of logical sense (eg the one about appearance on this thread which remains unanswered). Give me an example of your words being twisted, as I have done with your posts countless times? Not kowtowing to your choice of vocabulary is not twisting your words though.

My defence, however, in response to the accusations of name-calling, bullying etc, is that when I say something is misogynistic I do so in context, and allow a right of reply to which I respond. I do my best to explain why I think as I do, rather than make it a personal thing. I don't snipe from the sidelines, make generalised digs and ignore posts with questions I can't answer.