The Budget

A lot of people seem to forget about all the financial help given during Covid, job security etc. yes, there was fraud committed by some grabbing individuals, but due to the suddenness of having to support everyone it wasn’t possible to scrutinise every application. Obviously these huge loans as well as the other financial difficulties have to be paid back somehow. Whatever is in the budget was to be expected, we have been through tough times before, we will come through it. Leaving Europe hasn’t helped either but that is another thread!

Maisie, I was responding to the comments that were made saying we are experiencing hardships now because of Tory mismanagement through Covid, I responded by saying that everything has to be paid for because of the financial help given to those that couldn’t work and businesses received. The Country needed that help or they wouldn’t have eaten. The comments about state pension was in response to the comments made of someone not receiving full pension due to lack of contributions. You don’t pay in and so don’t receive, but there are benefits that take the money you get at retirement up. So it wasn’t just Covid, it was Russia invading Ukraine playing a big part. I hope that has explained everything. The comments about Keir are about his having no ideas of his own but good at complaining about everything without any solutions.

I can't find a link to David Mellor saying/writing that, so I'd be interested too.

David Mellor stated that the Budget is a dishonest document

Did he say why he thought it was dishonest?

Michael Portillo thinks that this budget is the final nail for the party’s electoral chances David Mellor agreed with him.
David Mellor stated that the Budget is a dishonest document

Allsorts

Would you rather no help was given for the duration of Pandemic? That workers starved? No, thenall birrowing has to be paid for. Where is that money tree tou think we should go to instead of to us the reciprocants.
Do you not think that Putin cutting of energy and leaving all Europe in a mess us tgecreSon we have an energy crisis.
Do you think we shouldn't help Ukraine? We should leave them all unsupported? We gave to fund taste as we would want to be supported if we were invaded.
No wonder sit on the fence Keur has no answers, no he will sit tigers on the side lines mocking everything but suggesting nothing, then sweep in two years Finn the line birrowing even more until twArs steer another letter kept saying coffers empty.
Those that didn't contribute the necessary contributions won't get the full state pension, if they are ill they get help, if not I'm afraid they don't, you either put in or you didn't, do font kep moaning about it. I had several jobs at different times as a single mom, but still knew it was my responsible for my future, by paying into the state pension, you don't get anything for nothing.

Leaving aside the mess your old Ipad has made of your spellings, Allsorts, I don't know what on earth you're on about in this post. Sorry...

It’s ok Allsorts Predictive text catches everyone out. It comes up with any number of weird and wonderful words despite what we’ve typed!
I got the gist of what you said and I agree with you.

I check what I type as I finish a sentence, all correct, at the end of my post press send, horrified how many words have changed. Can't get into the habit of reading it all back at the end. This is a very old I pad with a mind of its own but I should check as I know it. Apologies.

Would you rather no help was given for the duration of Pandemic? That workers starved? No, thenall birrowing has to be paid for. Where is that money tree tou think we should go to instead of to us the reciprocants.
Do you not think that Putin cutting of energy and leaving all Europe in a mess us tgecreSon we have an energy crisis.
Do you think we shouldn't help Ukraine? We should leave them all unsupported? We gave to fund taste as we would want to be supported if we were invaded.
No wonder sit on the fence Keur has no answers, no he will sit tigers on the side lines mocking everything but suggesting nothing, then sweep in two years Finn the line birrowing even more until twArs steer another letter kept saying coffers empty.
Those that didn't contribute the necessary contributions won't get the full state pension, if they are ill they get help, if not I'm afraid they don't, you either put in or you didn't, do font kep moaning about it. I had several jobs at different times as a single mom, but still knew it was my responsible for my future, by paying into the state pension, you don't get anything for nothing.

MaizieD

^Thank you for explaining this MaizieD. I was another one thinking “just cancel the bluddy thing and save the money”. I was also sceptical as thinking it was just to keep rich donors to the Tories sweet with issuing of said contracts. I was forgetting about all the work (and revenue in taxation) that it provides. I feel better about the whole project now!^

Actually, Ug, I think the HS2 is a dirty great white elephant, but at this moment, with the UK facing a prolonged depression and so little prospect of growth in the economy, I'm grateful for small mercies.

We have HS2 close to us, it’s not just the railway that’s costing so much, the infrastructure improvements surrounding it are massive. I’m not sure how much those changes are going to make or wether HS2 is worthwhile but it will make it easier to get to Manchester - eventually.

If you dont already listen I recommend PAUL Lewis on Money Box on saturdays radio 4 at noon. I have listened to it for years. Very good and clear information, keeps you up to date with changes , gives advance warnings of things and is definitely my go to progamme to make sense of anything financial. as he said this week yes pensioners get more but then you have to pay more tax and it is of course a loser as they will not be putting things up so of course with this degree of inflation it sounds good but isnt really!!

MaizieD

^Thank you for explaining this MaizieD. I was another one thinking “just cancel the bluddy thing and save the money”. I was also sceptical as thinking it was just to keep rich donors to the Tories sweet with issuing of said contracts. I was forgetting about all the work (and revenue in taxation) that it provides. I feel better about the whole project now!^

Actually, Ug, I think the HS2 is a dirty great white elephant, but at this moment, with the UK facing a prolonged depression and so little prospect of growth in the economy, I'm grateful for small mercies.

I think the HS2 project money could and absolutely out of necessity should be spent on our rail networks as a whole at key weak points!

We'd still get the jobs and the knock on effects - like people being able to travel further for work - knowing they can maintain that travel - and filling those vacancies. win win situation.

Personally I don't care about Johnson's morals in the private sphere but I do care about his lack of competence, his using Brexit as a vehicle to achieve personal advancement to the detriment of the national economy, his kowtowing to the loony Right in the Tory Party which cut us off from the single market through a hard Brexit and the failure to pursue vigorously the various frauds perpetrated during the pandemic. I also doubt that Johnson was the guiding light during the pandemic. Most of the real work was done by the chief medical officer, chief scientific officer, Oxford University and NHS managers.

Thank you for explaining this MaizieD. I was another one thinking “just cancel the bluddy thing and save the money”. I was also sceptical as thinking it was just to keep rich donors to the Tories sweet with issuing of said contracts. I was forgetting about all the work (and revenue in taxation) that it provides. I feel better about the whole project now!

Actually, Ug, I think the HS2 is a dirty great white elephant, but at this moment, with the UK facing a prolonged depression and so little prospect of growth in the economy, I'm grateful for small mercies.

Madmeg

Many years ago I was a volunteer advising people on state benefits and was amazed as to how unfair the system was. I am not up to date with current benefits but know I am not entitled to anything other than the state pension. That is, the LOWER state pension cos I also get a tiny few pounds from being contracted out for a short while. That in itself was an error because I was a part-time teacher and we weren't allowed to join the Teachers Pension Scheme. The EU eventually recognised this as "sex discrimination" and I was allowed to make back payments into the scheme. We ought to have also been able to pay reduced NI as a result, but the Department for Pensions ballsed it up, so we are still recorded as having "contracted out" despite having paid the full amount of NI, and hence don't get the "new" state pension.

In addition, I paid NI from the age of 15 to 67 and for about 30 years of this I paid Class 1, Class 2 and Class 4 for the same years. The second item entitled me to NO extra pension, and the third is a form of income tax (no extra pension either). I worked part time throughout the time I was raising children, so no Home Responsibilities Protection for me. I estimate that I have paid twice as much in NI as have many women who took time off work for their families (and why not?) and yet I get little benefit from it all.

I am not complaining about my lot. I lead a comfortable life (though noticed the pinch recently) but if anyone else suggests that I ought not to get my state pension cos I don't need it all I will blow a fuse.

My friend never paid into an occupational pension, spent every penny she had and topped it up on credit cards till the debts got written off, and now sadly disabled claims every state benefit there is (mostly non-taxable) and due to her disability has not got the means to spend all this income. Her very well-off kids are in for a huge windfall one day if she doesn't spend it on a care home. I love her to bits, but there is no fairness in state benefits at all.

Agreed - How the heck did she get her debts written off? When I became unable to work, because I did have some debt that I was no longer able to pay, I had to take out an IVA .... WOW! Talk about legal rip offs! I ended up paying more than twice the original debt in fees, I was horrified!

Not sure what you friend manages to claim but I claim every penny I can and still struggle with life, I don't go anywhere or do much at all, because I am not fit enough and can't afford it. If I can, I will have one day out a year and will go to The Cheltenham Gold Cup, but only because I can get a FREE ticket! Someone needs to take me and I hire a scooter, playing part the Irish, who are always funny and very polite, and because my birthday is just before in February will have a flutter, love it! I could get tickets for The Derby etc, but I have not got the figure to wear a summer frock and a large hat and hate the sun - I like Cheltenham because I can cover it all up with my Tweed, fedora and boots!

Oh, and don't get me on Brexit and its effects, which will be felt for generations to come.

Many years ago I was a volunteer advising people on state benefits and was amazed as to how unfair the system was. I am not up to date with current benefits but know I am not entitled to anything other than the state pension. That is, the LOWER state pension cos I also get a tiny few pounds from being contracted out for a short while. That in itself was an error because I was a part-time teacher and we weren't allowed to join the Teachers Pension Scheme. The EU eventually recognised this as "sex discrimination" and I was allowed to make back payments into the scheme. We ought to have also been able to pay reduced NI as a result, but the Department for Pensions ballsed it up, so we are still recorded as having "contracted out" despite having paid the full amount of NI, and hence don't get the "new" state pension.

In addition, I paid NI from the age of 15 to 67 and for about 30 years of this I paid Class 1, Class 2 and Class 4 for the same years. The second item entitled me to NO extra pension, and the third is a form of income tax (no extra pension either). I worked part time throughout the time I was raising children, so no Home Responsibilities Protection for me. I estimate that I have paid twice as much in NI as have many women who took time off work for their families (and why not?) and yet I get little benefit from it all.

I am not complaining about my lot. I lead a comfortable life (though noticed the pinch recently) but if anyone else suggests that I ought not to get my state pension cos I don't need it all I will blow a fuse.

My friend never paid into an occupational pension, spent every penny she had and topped it up on credit cards till the debts got written off, and now sadly disabled claims every state benefit there is (mostly non-taxable) and due to her disability has not got the means to spend all this income. Her very well-off kids are in for a huge windfall one day if she doesn't spend it on a care home. I love her to bits, but there is no fairness in state benefits at all.

"A caring and compassionate Conservative Government" who leaves vulnerable people on legacy benefits with absolutely nothing compared to other benefits - all because "We did the right thing and worked" before we fell sick - that work has cost me £650 + £900 Cost of Living payments, and am in debt to the tune of £1400 to British Gas - my MP doesn't give a shite (Tory obviously) and it was 8 degrees last night in my room .... daren't put the heating on until BG commission my meters (5th appointment on Monday) and I can actually SEE how much it costs to put the electric underfloor heating on overnight. Feel so miserable about it all ...

I've read the whole thread, and what stands out for me is -what about the commitment to reasonable, workable funding for the NHS? And also what Winterwhite wrote,

*What do those who are pleased with this budget think about the shunting of social care reform into the long grass? This was a Tory manifesto commitment in 2019. Boris Johnson said he had an oven-ready plan to fix social care ‘once and for all’.
Failure to do so makes a mockery of any claims to compassioniate conservatism. I suppose it was foolish to think he ever meant a word if it.*

While, naturally, we have been working out how it might affect us financially, it seems to me that these concerns have not been adequately addressed at all in the budget. We know both the NHS and the Care system are on their knees.

We have a two year plan basically that doesn't hurt TOO much - its a deliberate calculation until the next election when I fear it could be a more dire situation, certainly re these vital services. (Also policing.)

I think the reason Starmer is not saying more at present is simply that there are too many unknowables, the Ukraine War being a major one, but also our trading abilities

I think one positive step the government should take asap is to re-establish better trading relationships with the EU. I'm not suggesting rejoining, but sorting out customs and tariff relationships so we fall in step with the EU, our nearest and biggest trading partners. We also need to change our immigration guidelines to recruit necessary workers. We need to hit the non doms.
A small thought - we need to re-firm up Erasmus, (research and development co-operation funding which has benefited us greatly but is about to disappear.and that means sorting out the relationship of NI with the rest of the UK. if we establish better customs and tariff arrangements we can bring NI into the UK.

MaizieD

Cambia

Someone more intelligent than me please explain why we don’t just stop HS2 or put it on hold until we can afford it? Surely that would help knock the debt down?

We can afford it. We can afford anything we want to afford, *so long as there are resources available for purchase.

The nation's economy is not like a household economy. Households have a finite amount of money available to them, the government doesn't; it can 'create' whatever it needs.

Like all government investment in infrastructure, whether you think it's necessary or not, the money put into HS2 will be paying people's wages and private enterprises supplying the materials needed for the work. And the private contractors who are carrying out the work. This money will then circulate in the economy, sustaining businesses and jobs , when the people in receipt of it spend it. Most of it will return to the government by way of taxation.

State investment doesn't disappear down a big black hole. It contributes to growth in the economy.

Thank you for explaining this MaizieD. I was another one thinking “just cancel the bluddy thing and save the money”. I was also sceptical as thinking it was just to keep rich donors to the Tories sweet with issuing of said contracts. I was forgetting about all the work (and revenue in taxation) that it provides. I feel better about the whole project now!

Boz

I thought you would be interested in this story from The Times

La Serenissima by Jonathan Keates review — the decline and fall of Venice

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b1fdc666-64f2-11ed-9c3b-2d9184d0076f?shareToken=a1fdb2da3d6bf48f66b93168b65164b5

Chilling comparison with the British Empire. We are in decline but will not acknowledge the fact.

Thank you for posting the link, I read the whole article and it was very interesting. And depressing.

Govts, especially this particular one just want to see lower taxation for their mates.

Yesterday, when Hunt was being interviewed, he proudly said that nom doms spent money in the UK and that they were charged £75k for the privilege of living there.

So they shop in Bond Street on expensive clothes - mostly Italian and French, they buy expensive art works from Sotheby's and Christies and of course they buy very expensive houses in Mayfair and Knightsbridge.

They will be sufficiently well advised to have an address outside the UK and the EU so they will not be paying any VAT. Possibly in Monaco - that's outside the EU.

How does the above help the UK economy?

Some like Beth Rigsby on Sky News think there isn’t much difference between the conservative budget and a Labour one so maybe that’s why Keir is finding it difficult.

MaizieD

^Just as when local authorities built houses, they didn't borrow money on a 25 year mortgage, it was 120 years.^

Local authorities can't create their own money. The government can, and has, and it doesn't need to be repaid to anyone (despite what the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee says)

I think that the emphasis is on accountability rather than repaying it. As you know, if the govt borrowed (by way of gilts, POSB etc) these whilst earning interest for the investors, will be paid back at some time in the future.

The govt must account for the errors but there will still be people who will blame covid, the war in Ukraine etc rather than the powers that be.

MaizieD

^The Boris Bashing continues.^
How short are your memories?

You know, I've read most of the posts on this thread, might have missed one or two, and I don't recall anyone mentioning bl**dy Boris at all.

It must be one of those IMHAO people. Very foolish.

This is interesting. Summed up by the last sentence. This week the economics of that became simpler and starker – but the politics just got trickier.

www.execreview.com/2022/11/economic-gloom-should-spell-tory-disaster-but-hunt-has-made-it-tricky-for-starmer/

I think Starmer is too clever not to come up with something, but I do wish he would start giving a clearer path, sense of way forward, etc.