Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

I would happily pay for food and use of a bed but only if the NHS stop wasting our money and slimmed down their overpaid top level administrators.

That ‘thin edge of wedge’ has been around ages…I had to pay £60 at Boots to have my ears syringed …although technically it’s sort of ‘vacuuming’ now…now if I remember didn’t the doctor or nurse do that !?

I don't understand the comment about your niece working part-time foxie.

BTW I had my first child when I was 37, had six months' maternity leave and went back to work full-time as a teacher and my second when I was 42 and repeated the process because I couldn't afford to do otherwise. But I don't really see that it's relevant to a discussion about people queue jumping in the NHS.

foxie48

growstuff

Incidentally, teachers usually do private tuition in addition to a full timetable, not instead of working full-time for the NHS.

So do consultants, many private operations take place in the evening when the consultant has done a stint at their NHS job. Teachers also do supply work, work part time, do other jobs + do coaching/private tuition. fwiw lots of consultants do research along with their clinical practice with then feeds back into the NHS, they teach their junior colleagues too as part of the Hippocratic Oath. My niece is a consultant, she waited until she was 40 and fully qualified to have children, she's working part time for a few years because she wants to spend some time with her children (her job was totally all consuming before that). she doesn't do any private work. Do you resent her working part time when she's received so much expensive training?

There are all sorts of things in workplaces of all types that are perfectly reasonable on a personal level, but become problematic when lots of people do them. Part-time working is one of them.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to start work a bit late and miss the rush hour commute, but if everyone did it business couldn't open at 9.00am (or whatever). I don't blame your niece for optimising her hours, but that doesn't mean that it's good for the NHS as a whole.

I have no issue with people paying for hotel-style accommodation or other 'extras', but where health is concerned, and even though I realise that we are, to see extent, being given little choice in some cases, I don't support queue-jumping, either at appointment or treatment level. Health is too important for that.

Casdon

Private healthcare cover doesn’t generally cover emergencies or chronic/complex medical conditions, including cancer or dementia. Should you need an emergency procedure you will also still be dependent on the NHS.

Yes, which I mentioned also in my post above if anything goes wrong after private treatment..

As long as doctors fulfil their contracted hours I can't see a problem with them undertaking private work.
The hospitals are separate here.

There's a facility not far from here which undertakes routine operations for the NHS and a friend is going to have her cataracts done at another private hospital in England also courtesy of the NHS.

Problems may arise if anything goes wrong after an operation at a private hospital as then the patient will be taken to a NHS hospital for emergency treatment.

Most of the consultant appointments my DH and I attended were on an evening or on Saturdays. Same for scans. DH is the sort, of which there are many, who won't take time off work, so out of hours appointments fit in nicely for them.

On one occasion the phlebotomy department at the private hospital lost a blood request form and I noticed they had a direct line to the consultant at her NHS job at The Royal Free and she answered straightaway.

Urmstongran

The local hospital where I used to work up the road does not charge for car parking in it’s huge car park AussieG. I’m very proud of that fact - a decision made years ago by the Trust as it was the first NHS hospital in the country opened by Nye Bevan in 1948.

Black and white Photos of him meeting the Matron and surgeons in white oats (smoking!) adorn the walls of the corridors. The theatre rooms look sparse - not much equipment back in those days - and the wards with rows of metal beds lined up with hospital blankets tucked tightly in look from a different world. Hardly anything not functional to see, no soft furnishings for instance, just scrubbed waxed floors and nurses standing in starched uniforms!

Times have changed and not everything for the better.

My mother, who became an SRN in the early 50s, worked in a hospital just like the one you describe! It was Lambeth Hospital in South London. She trained on the job and, as a divorcée, got a government grant to send me to a boarding school on the basis of her training for a profession.
During the school holidays (long) I was allowed to live in with her in the nurse's residence on site (we shared her single bed), and the hospital gave permission for me to follow her on the wards occasionally. I was even given a couple of jobs - re-winding washed elastic bandages on a little wooden machine for re-use, and loading the autoclave. They also gave permission for me to attend (suitably attired) a minor surgical operation - but I almost fainted at the prospect, so declined .
Can you even imagine any of that being allowed now!
I have the lasting impression of those polished and waxed floors, smelling of lavender, and the rows of metal-framed beds. And the grunting and grumbling of old men - she was on the men's surgical ward.
I also had a school-girl crush on Trevor, a 'male' nurse as they were described in those days, and used to drag my mother to the hospital cafeteria where he sometimes sat, and make gooey eyes at him.
Everyone thought I'd follow in her footsteps, but after being shunned by Trevor, I decided to go into commerce instead .

growstuff

Incidentally, teachers usually do private tuition in addition to a full timetable, not instead of working full-time for the NHS.

So do consultants, many private operations take place in the evening when the consultant has done a stint at their NHS job. Teachers also do supply work, work part time, do other jobs + do coaching/private tuition. fwiw lots of consultants do research along with their clinical practice with then feeds back into the NHS, they teach their junior colleagues too as part of the Hippocratic Oath. My niece is a consultant, she waited until she was 40 and fully qualified to have children, she's working part time for a few years because she wants to spend some time with her children (her job was totally all consuming before that). she doesn't do any private work. Do you resent her working part time when she's received so much expensive training?

A thought.

Agency staff cost the NHS a huge amount of money. Nurses often retire at 55y to collect their good sized lump sum and NHS pension ... then many go back to work for a day or two per week or work 3 or 4 night shifts a month as the pay is so lucrative. I know of one or two nursing staff who did this in the past.

As my husband said at the time “you can’t blame them for gaming the system but if, like in the private sector working they had to make a definitive choice many would opt just to keep on working”. At the factory he worked at, once you took your lump sum and pension you weren’t allowed to go back under any circumstances! Maybe the NHS ought to be the same?

The local hospital where I used to work up the road does not charge for car parking in it’s huge car park AussieG. I’m very proud of that fact - a decision made years ago by the Trust as it was the first NHS hospital in the country opened by Nye Bevan in 1948.

Black and white Photos of him meeting the Matron and surgeons in white oats (smoking!) adorn the walls of the corridors. The theatre rooms look sparse - not much equipment back in those days - and the wards with rows of metal beds lined up with hospital blankets tucked tightly in look from a different world. Hardly anything not functional to see, no soft furnishings for instance, just scrubbed waxed floors and nurses standing in starched uniforms!

Times have changed and not everything for the better.

growstuff

But foxie How many NHS hospitals have spare capacity, when NHS hospitals' waiting lists are getting longer and longer?

I don't agree with you.

It's true that there are increasingly expensive and ground-breaking treatments available, but I believe they should be available for all with no queue jumping. And I believe we all need to accept that if we want them, we need to pay for them through the taxation system.

Exactly, you have proved my point. Few NHS hospitals have spare capacity so the 49% of private usage is a complete red herring. Most hospitals do not do private work, the few that do are generally using extra capacity of expensive diagnostics ie The Brompton. If this generates extra money for their NHS work, well that's good for everyone. It is not queue jumping unless private patients use a private diagnostics test to jump the NHS list and tbh I haven't seen any evidence for this. If you have, please share it. I've had to have several cardiac diagnostic tests in the last three years, all done promptly by the NHS, it was the in hospital treatment that I've had to wait for. Friends have had MRI's and scans, all done in good time but the hip /knee replacements etc that they need are what they are waiting for. Actually Growstuff I think we want the same for the NHS, it's just I am prepared to accept that the 2022 NHS is a very different organisation to the one set up in 1948 and needs to change. It is not all about money but as I keep saying, I am very happy to pay more for my treatment if it improves the service for anyone who is less well off than I am be it through taxation or by some other method.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Incidentally, teachers usually do private tuition in addition to a full timetable, not instead of working full-time for the NHS.

But foxie How many NHS hospitals have spare capacity, when NHS hospitals' waiting lists are getting longer and longer?

I don't agree with you.

It's true that there are increasingly expensive and ground-breaking treatments available, but I believe they should be available for all with no queue jumping. And I believe we all need to accept that if we want them, we need to pay for them through the taxation system.

Compared to other contries we get off lightly as far as charges go . Even in Ireland ( South) you pay for A & E if your GP has not sent you . We have gone down the private route out of desperation as the wait to see a consultant was getting us nowhere .

growstuff

foxie48

The Royal Brompton is probably the leading UK hospital in heart and lung conditions, it takes the some of the most difficult and complex cases from all over the country which are extremely expensive to treat. If it partially funds this by being the leading private provider of diagnostics, surely this is to everyone's advantage as long as this is not in any way disadvantaging NHS patients?

So you're OK with the NHS being subsidised by queue jumpers.

No but I am realistic enough to know that if our research hospitals can continue to offer expensive and often ground breaking surgery to NHS patients then it needs to be paid for. Consultants do their hours for the NHS and if they see private patients outside of those hours, then surely that is up to them. Does anyone stop teachers offering private coaching outside of school hours? If an NHS hospital has spare capacity for diagnostics, surely it is better for that capacity to be used and paid for by private patients? I don't suffer from being envious of people who have more choices than I do but I do subscribe to doing whatever improves access to good treatment for those who don't have a choice.

Given the dire state of the NHS of course the wealthy (or desperate) are already paying for private treatment.
The Tories loathe the ethos of the NHS and have deliberately run it down in order todo away with it. They will then adopt the US system of health insurance to make vast profits out of sickness for the drug companies.

Private healthcare cover doesn’t generally cover emergencies or chronic/complex medical conditions, including cancer or dementia. Should you need an emergency procedure you will also still be dependent on the NHS.

Norah

Joseanne

I'm not particularly knowledgeable in any of this, but given the choice of paying towards the NHS or private healthcare I would choose private from past experience.

Agreed, we're in a private scheme.

Works, for our needs, in the UK - which haven't been many. Not whilst traveling, though many purchase that as well.

Please read my response above.

We've had a lot more experience of the health system here in France than we ever had in England, although my parents and siblings have had excellent treatment.

I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating. We are registered with the health system which entitles us to health care. The state pays about 75% of our costs and we have top insurance for the difference. Ours will cost us 223 euros a month. As a severe asthmatic the state pays 100%m as it does with terminal illnesses. When we first arrived here back in 2009 I considered whether to pay for the top up but a friend said that whilst terminal care is completely free you have to pay for all the tests that are necessary before the diagnosis is reached. As we were over retirement age i decided that we should pay and I'm glad we did.

The good thing about the top up insurance is that they cannot get rid of you - unlike the private health insurers in the UK. The son of a former neighbour had cancer. He had his usual check up with BUPA and was pronounced OK. A few months later he had a relapse - BUPA wouldn't take him and so it was back to the NHS. Despite all their wonderful he died, aged early 30s.

Many of the private clinics in the UK do not have a full complement of medical staff on during the evenings and weekends and in patients in an emergencu have to go to the NHS.

Has anyone noticed how often the private clinics in the UK are built close to an NHS hospital? As with the lady who died a few weeks ago because they couldn't get an ambulance quickly?

Here we often chose our consultants. Sometimes our GP will recommend a specialist. There is a website called doctolib that you can look at, having decided which hospital you want to go to and you can then read about the specialists and book an appointment on line. You can find ratings of the various specialists. On a couple of occasions my DH was contacted because of cancellations.

Here we have separate hospitals, or separate wings specially for patients who no longer need to be in the main hospital but who need more care because either their family cannot cope or they are on their own. A bit lie former cottage hospitals perhaps.

Joseanne

I'm not particularly knowledgeable in any of this, but given the choice of paying towards the NHS or private healthcare I would choose private from past experience.

Agreed, we're in a private scheme.

Works, for our needs, in the UK - which haven't been many. Not whilst traveling, though many purchase that as well.

A questions for all you experts ...

I assume you were all senior managers in the NHS and understand systems ... how would YOU reduce waste and increase efficiency? You obviously all know far more than all the people who have been brought in to investigate over the years.

foxie48

The Royal Brompton is probably the leading UK hospital in heart and lung conditions, it takes the some of the most difficult and complex cases from all over the country which are extremely expensive to treat. If it partially funds this by being the leading private provider of diagnostics, surely this is to everyone's advantage as long as this is not in any way disadvantaging NHS patients?

So you're OK with the NHS being subsidised by queue jumpers.

Casdon

Eg
If the waiting time for the tests you were quoted when you saw your consultant is exceeded
If you are told by the radiographer, as it seems you were, that private patients are taking NHS slots
if your appointment time is inconvenient, eg after 5pm because private patients are taking prime slots during normal working hours
If a private patient is prioritised whilst you’re there waiting, and you have to wait past your appointment time in the department
Probably more, those are off the top of my head.

Yes, it was. It was nearly five months before I had my cancer op from the time of initial diagnosis.

I was told that the hospital treats a number of private patients - presumably during the day, just like everybody else. This one couldn't go ahead with the MRI because her insurance company wouldn't fund it. If she's been self-funding, it would have happened. The radiographer was cross that a slot had been "wasted" - the hospital wasn't even being paid for it.