Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

maddyone

The key question is, by what criteria would it be decided that someone is wealthy? Would people have to show their bank statements? Or the value of their house according to the council tax payable? Or their wage slip?

Yes, it's a daft idea.
Are we supposed to take out another mortgage on our homes for a knee or hip operation if we own a house but have a very low income?
Where would it end?

My post was in response to Grantanow who said
I am shocked that NHS Scotland should even discuss it

I'm not shocked as discussion of all and any options should not be shut down.

I realise the SNP disagree with this.

The key question is, by what criteria would it be decided that someone is wealthy? Would people have to show their bank statements? Or the value of their house according to the council tax payable? Or their wage slip?

Casdon

Grannynannywanny

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

It’s not normally in the middle of a clinic in my experience, consultants I worked with either saw the private patients between 8 and 9, or at the end of their NHS clinic, often 12.30-1.30. PPs had designated, separate slots for appointments. They were careful not to mix the patient groups, or to encroach on their NHS clinic time with private patients taking NHS slots.

In my recent experience, it probably wasn't happening during consultants' clinic times, but it was certainly happening for the other services I had, such as MRIs, ultrasounds, echocardiograms and blood tests. I was asked each time I visited the hospital whether I was a private or NHS patient.

One of the reasons the radiographer was so put out during the incident I mentioned above was because the private patient, who didn't go ahead with her MRI, had taken an appointment which could have been used for a patient from the NHS waiting list. She told me that the hospital is doing an increasing number of private MRIs. Records show that it earned over £5 million from private patients in 2019/20.

I agree, I don't think it's wrong for NHS chiefs to discuss any way out of the problem. What I don't agree with is linking it to SNP.

We're reaching crisis point and I don't think it's wrong for Health Chiefs to discuss all options.

It's just discussion amongst those who have to find a way forward. They will not be making the decisions; governments do that.

I am shocked that NHS Scotland should even discuss it and it's clear from her reaction that Sturgeon sees it as a massive vote loser for the SNP. The NHS is paid for from taxation so it can be free (with some minor exceptions like prescription charges, etc.) at the point of delivery. I see no reason why the 'wealthy' should not pay more tax so it can remain free. The NHS Scotland discussion risks a two tier system with priority for the 'wealthy' and of course the definition of wealthy would shift down over time to include the middle earners. Good luck with that!!

This thread (and also the articles/reports in the Mainstream Media) has become a discussion on whether paying for some NHS services is a good or bad idea. Fair enough. However, could we agree that the spin that the SNP is considering this way forward, is Fake News, concocted by the Unionist Media to discredit the SNP?

Snp has no plans for a two tier system. This was raised at a meeting of NHS heads of health boards and discounted. There are significant concerns about health provision across the UK. Why are so many nurses leaving ? The poor pay generally which has left them behind and the lack of staffing which means they are chasing their tails. This is a UK issue. There was a NHS Scotland story at the 2014 referendum too in an attempt to badmouth snp then.

That’s my recollection of the arrangement too Casdon although once I do recall a private patient being seen in the middle of an out patient session but the consultant had arranged for a swap owing to the p.p. having mobility issues and relying on being accompanied by a family member at a more convenient time. The consultant then added two more NHS appointments on at the end of his clinic for NHS patients to compensate. This of course had been pre-agreed with the manager.

Grannynannywanny

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

It’s not normally in the middle of a clinic in my experience, consultants I worked with either saw the private patients between 8 and 9, or at the end of their NHS clinic, often 12.30-1.30. PPs had designated, separate slots for appointments. They were careful not to mix the patient groups, or to encroach on their NHS clinic time with private patients taking NHS slots.

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

Thank you for the clarification Casdon. It’s good to clear up these misconceptions, otherwise people understandably get cross.

Urmstongran

^My understanding is that if your son was seen privately at an NHS clinic the consultant was behaving dishonestly.^

Not necessarily foxie. Back in the day (don’t know recently I’ve been retired 8 years) some consultants would see private patients at the end of their NHS clinic sessions after an agreement from the hospital Trust by paying a sum to cover use of the room in the out patient department.

Urmstongran is correct, that is still the case. A clinic on NHS premises can be mixed private and NHS, the consultant pays for the use of the room, and uses his private secretary to arrange appointments, private case notes etc. and the patient pays for any tests which arise out of the private appointment.

My understanding is that if your son was seen privately at an NHS clinic the consultant was behaving dishonestly.

Not necessarily foxie. Back in the day (don’t know recently I’ve been retired 8 years) some consultants would see private patients at the end of their NHS clinic sessions after an agreement from the hospital Trust by paying a sum to cover use of the room in the out patient department.

Grannynannywanny

Our recent family experience of private health care had the steam blasting from my ears. My adult son has an ongoing eye problem and attends a specialist eye clinic. He had a worsening of the problem and his GP advised he needed seen urgently at the eye clinic. GP phoned to try to book and was told the clinic was fully booked. He told my son he was concerned that a delay would cause worsening of the eye problem and suggested if he could afford it he should book a private appointment.

Fast forward 48 hours and my son has his private appointment. In the clinic that was fully booked and with the NHS consultant he normally attends!

"the NHS cannot pay for or subsidise your private hospital treatment. there must be as clear a separation as possible between your private treatment and your NHS treatment. your position on an NHS waiting list should not be affected if you choose to have a private consultation." NHS uk website.

My understanding is that if your son was seen privately at an NHS clinic the consultant was behaving dishonestly.

Urmstongran

It’s in the Daily Mail on line too this morning.
I get it - how do they fill a black hole? It’s a suggestion to be discussed along with others. But it was a surprise all the same as it goes against the ethos of being ‘free at the point of need’, which I why I asked “is this the thin end of the wedge?”.

The GP on this morning thought that those earning over £100,000 should pay an extra health tax .

The A & E doctor was against this despite seeing more and more patients who couldn’t get GP appointments and were contributing to waiting times and 999 calls.

It was discussed. It hasn't happened. The FM says it won't happen. Why the fuss? Petera is correct about free prescriptions being cost neutral so there's a good idea that can be implemented in all of the four nations.

It’s in the Daily Mail on line too this morning.
I get it - how do they fill a black hole? It’s a suggestion to be discussed along with others. But it was a surprise all the same as it goes against the ethos of being ‘free at the point of need’, which I why I asked “is this the thin end of the wedge?”.

PaddyAnne54 it was also discussed on ITV this morning if the wealthier should contribute more to Scotlands NHS

Surely both Media outlets cannot be wrong?

Our recent family experience of private health care had the steam blasting from my ears. My adult son has an ongoing eye problem and attends a specialist eye clinic. He had a worsening of the problem and his GP advised he needed seen urgently at the eye clinic. GP phoned to try to book and was told the clinic was fully booked. He told my son he was concerned that a delay would cause worsening of the eye problem and suggested if he could afford it he should book a private appointment.

Fast forward 48 hours and my son has his private appointment. In the clinic that was fully booked and with the NHS consultant he normally attends!

Just to add to my post - when I was referred to a specialist in Holland by my GP I saw him the next day.

Jaxjacky

A proposal mooted by a phone in caller to the radio was to stop free prescriptions for all in Scotland, I didn’t hear any figures on how much that would save.

It would save almost nothing and in some years cost more.

One of the conditions on the prescription service in Scotland was that it had to be cost-neutral.

All the that the 10% who actually pay in England do is to fund the system that figures out who should pay and who should not. The real political question is why the Westminster government are keeping a paid prescription service in England?

It seems a good system dragonfly not to have private hospital but all use the same ones as let’s face it, if anything urgently goes wrong after a private appointment, where do the patients go? The good old NHS A&E departments of course as private hospitals don’t have them!

dragonfly46

Growstuff no everyone gets exactly the same treatment, same doctors, hospitals, beds etc. it is just in some cases the state pays and in others the compulsory insurance pays. Generally your employer pays half of your insurance.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't have a problem with that. In many ways that's what the tax system could achieve, with higher earners paying more.

I noted that taxes and national insurance are higher. If we want to keep a modern health service for everybody (and I'm not sure everybody does) with no queue jumping, that's what needs to happen in the UK.