Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

paddyanne, Urm is correct. I heard this on the news in BBC Radio Scotland yesterday on the way to work and it was mentioned again today on the way home.

Joseanne

I don't have knowledge of the NHS as I have never used it (except for GP and A & E) but I sort of agree that some of the private investigations are wasteful. My experience was that if you went to see a consultant privately let's say about your bowels, he would also then that very day refer you to his gynae mate colleague in the next room and between them they would request every possible unnecessary blood test and scan. A bit like a full MOT.
On the other hand, I can understand how beneficial that is because if every possible angle is thoroughly investigated there and then there will be no room for error. The NHS could never afford to operate in this manner for each and every patient.

As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I've had in the past. I get a very thorough review every year (apart from during lockdown). My diabetes was originally diagnosed when I went for an appointment for a bad chest infection.

The only time the NHS has ever let me down is when a GP missed my breast cancer, despite the fact that I knew something was wrong.

My only complaint is about GP waiting times - and I don't blame the GPs for that. On the other hand, if I could afford it, I could queue jump and visit one of the numerous private GP practices which are springing up in this area. Just by coincidence (ahem), they're the same GPs who used to work in the local practices, who now are short-staffed - I wonder why!

. . . those who shout 'nut we PAID NI all our lives',,,yes, indeed but it is not enough to pay pensions, pay for care homes, hospitals, doctors, and sll the calls on the NHS ...it did not keep up with costs and unexpected longevity. The government actuaries were sadly not making provision for this and all the calls that are on the NHS now .............

I don't think people 'shout' in the rather petulant way you suggest - they may point out that fact, which is not the same thing at all. You are right that there is not enough to cover all the things you mention, but governments have a choice. They could increase taxes and also increase the level of cover. They could introduce a defined NI scheme payable by everyone over 18. They could rejig current spending plans on things like HS2. Or they could carry on letting the NHS that people have paid into wither and die, whilst those who can afford it go private.

Telling people in the rather sneering way you have just done that they have not paid enough, and implying that they have no right to point out that they have made decades of contributions might explain why you have been pilloried. All everyday citizens can do is pay what we are asked for, and it is up to governments to ask for more if they need it, in accordance with their party's philosophy about who should pay most.

Callistemon21

^The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue^

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

Well said Doodledog.

We need to be vocal in supporting the nhs and demanding proper funding. We need to pressure our politicians to fund social care effectively. Not to give the funding to the nhs, history teaches us it will be absorbed into into budget, with l.a. Social care ever the poor relation.
I’m emotionally raw and exhausted because of my husband’s recent death . Our local cancer specialist hospital, the Christie, treated him like a private patient. If that’s our baseline. His consultant and specialist nurses responded to any phone calls. Clinics were busy, his treatment sometimes delayed because of a crisis, it was busy but compassionate professional and levels of skill, research superb
Our GP was wonderful. I called in for routine bloods last week, she saw me in reception, came over, talked with me for 30 min d, hugged me as I went off for bloods.
The nhs is Alice. It needs us to pressure politicians to fund it

growstuff

Callistemon21

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

It depends how you define jumping the queue. If a consultant works 4 days for the NHS, and one day privately, it’s a moot point as to whether if there was a complete embargo on private work he or she would offer that one day to the NHS. Most probably wouldn’t, because there are plenty of other avenues open to them which pay. Medical insurance claims, medico-legal, agency work, physician to a sports club, occupational health for a company, etc.etc.
It’s far too simplistic to assume that work which is currently done privately would benefit NHS patients because the capacity would somehow belong to the NHS otherwise. The reality is it will never happen.

Casdon I accept that point (maybe). However, not in the case of my local GPs. Until recently, they were all working nearly full-time for the NHS, but have now set up private practices and have cut their NHS hours right down. I have a friend, who is also a GP and works locally. She's furious with them because it just means more work for those who won't jump ship.

I'm not sure about consultants either. We know a consultant paediatric surgeon, who also works full-time for the NHS. His department is short-staffed and they can't find replacements, but there are fellow consultants who work privately. It doesn't pay that much more apparently, but it's less stress and they can choose their hours. If that option weren't available or if the working conditions in the NHS were better, some of them would stick with the NHS.

However you look at it, people who pay are jumping the queue. It's the one real advantage to private healthcare and people do it because the NHS is under so much pressure.

Most GPs who have reduced their hours do so because if they are in a GP partnership they reach the maximum government pension threshold at about age 50, and it’s just not financially worth their while to continue working full time.a major influence is that they are also exhausted by the demands of the job - it’s an unpopular choice for young doctors now because it’s an absolute grind. I don’t know any GPs who have gone into private work on the side, but I’m sure a minority will do, it’s no doubt much less stressful.
I think where we differ is that having worked in the system for many years, I know that the vast majority of people who do both NHS and private work are honest, they don’t game the system to benefit private patients. The system isn’t going to change, private work will always exist, there will always be people who are willing and able to pay, and as long as they don’t do so at the expense of NHS patients I can live with that - particularly as I know that few consultants would work full time for the NHS otherwise, particularly in specialties like Orthopaedics and General Surgery where there are so many other options open to them.

growstuff

Urmstongran

Actually not a bad idea to charge for food whilst in hospital! Even a nominal sum of £1 a day would help the coffers as in-patients would be eating at home anyway. Probably get told now it would be too bureaucratic. Seems most ideas seem to get labelled that way these days.

Not if the food is anything like I've experienced!

Last time I was in hospital my partner was sent off to the onsite M & S Simply Food to buy me something to eat. I was starving after having fasted 18 hours and there was nothing on the menu I could eat.

I did the same.
I was our days in hospital a ew months ago and asked my family to bring food in, or I sent them to the shop to get something
I found hospital food terrible so no way would I pay or it.

growstuff

Callistemon21

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

So you think they should not be allowed to work for the NHS and privately?

In other words, they should not be allowed to work part-time hours.
Is that legal?

If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time

Yes they can.
They work their contracted hours, fulfil their duties to the NHS and what they do outside their contracted hours is surely their own business.

I've not come across that with GPs.

Are you saying we should go back to the old days when doctors should be on call 24/7?

Casdon

growstuff

Callistemon21

The rich probably pay anyway for private treatment and jump the queue

I'm not sure if jumping the queue is the right term.

The private health sector exists anyway and if someone has a procedure done privately they are not jumping an NHS queue. In fact, they are not adding to the NHS queue because they don't go on the list.

I am "in the queue" for two procedures. The queue here for joint replacement is about 4 years.
If I do go privately I'm not jumping the NHS queue, I'm removing myself from it to avoid years of pain.
I hope I'll hear soon but am not optimistic.

We're not wealthy, these procedures would be paid for out of retirement savings which could be spent on something else which others might consider essential.

Yes, they are jumping the queue Callistemon. There is a limited number of doctors. If they're working privately, they can't work for the NHS at the same time. That's what's happening with GP surgeries in this area and it happens with consultants' lists too.

It depends how you define jumping the queue. If a consultant works 4 days for the NHS, and one day privately, it’s a moot point as to whether if there was a complete embargo on private work he or she would offer that one day to the NHS. Most probably wouldn’t, because there are plenty of other avenues open to them which pay. Medical insurance claims, medico-legal, agency work, physician to a sports club, occupational health for a company, etc.etc.
It’s far too simplistic to assume that work which is currently done privately would benefit NHS patients because the capacity would somehow belong to the NHS otherwise. The reality is it will never happen.

Good post, Casdon

I shall investigate private treatment in the NY.
If I decide to go ahead then my name will be taken off the NHS list and someone else will move up the list.

If I don't then the consultant will see another private patient.

You cannot dictate what someone decides to do career-wise.

Good luck whatever you decide Callistemon21, four years is an awfully long time to wait.

I really wouldn't mind paying £10 for a GP appointment as we have not been allowed face to face appointments since covid. Their figures for 'no shows' or 'time wasters' are apparently fantastic at the moment.

My chum is a GP Practice manager
Every 6 months she pays a substantial amount as a Bonus payment to the Partners of the practice from Profits made.
Contracted Doctors do not get this, or other staff.

Visa girl, gp practices were forced into a business model. Partners benefit financially, just as partners in law firms do.
Nhs and other public services should be not for profit

Urm may be correct that it was on the BBC ..but the BBC and the press have reported a lie ...not unusual where the devolved governments are concerned particularly the Scottish government .I will repeat ,the Scottish government has NO intention of charging ANYONE for treatment on the SNHS.In fact they have said that the ethos of the NHS is free at the point of use and that is how it will stay FOR EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF WEALTH .

Now I know thats not what you want to read BUTits the truth ! After yesterdays decision by the "supreme" court (ENGLISH LAW) there will be more frequent attacks on the Scottish government in an attempt to destroy it .

Its what Westminster and the right wing press ,BBC in particular do .After all they are staffed by and lead by Tories ...or Led by DONKEYS .

The SNP IS the most left leaning party in the UK ,they show Starmer in his true blue colours

Are you a bit upset about something Paddyann?

We have absolutely no GP service to speak of in our town available anymore. My Health Centre even locked the surgery doors at one stage to 'safe guard patients'. Even with an appointment you had to wait in the rain whilst the receptionist sat at her desk until she deemed it time to let you in. The surgery was completely empty apart from staff. No appointments can be had for love or money, doctors seem to have vanished. I have not seen my designated GP for 6 years. I phoned for a consultation, no response. Did an econsult still waiting for that phone call 3 weeks later, still nothing.

Out of sheer desperation I found a private medical centre, within a couple of days had a face to face appointment. Blood tests done, result took a few days, diagnosed and treatment all finished in one week. I was treated with respect and a human being, not a nuisance. The doctor was caring and fully attentive to my needs, just like the old days. Yes, it was expensive but worth every penny.
Don't say I am a wealthy patient I am not because like many of you I am on the basic pension with no credits or help from anyone. Had to raise the money by selling something this time, but will put a little aside for the future each month, just in case it happens again, I have given up with GPs, they only causes stress and anxiety and for me life is too short.

The hospitals are brilliant but GPs are finished.

So if the SNP have no intention of allowing the Scottish NHS to charge for treatment why were the NHS Board discussing the possibility?

I think it was the sort of meeting where those attending were supposed to consider all possibilities. No saying it was a decision. I suppose every sort of suggestion would need to be noted then ruled out following discussion.

Visgir1

My chum is a GP Practice manager
Every 6 months she pays a substantial amount as a Bonus payment to the Partners of the practice from Profits made.
Contracted Doctors do not get this, or other staff.

This is because GPs are not employed by the NHS as people seem to think. They are actually self employed in their practice. They ‘buy in’ to the Practice and this costs them a lot of money. When they leave they take their ‘bought in’ payments with them and another doctor agrees to buy into the Practice. The partners who buy into the Practice are given funds from the NHS to treat NHS patients or to employ salaried doctors and the Practice pays them a salary instead of them buying in. If the Practice decides to give it’s partners a bonus then that is up to them. Having said that the only person in my family who has been given a bonus most definitely is not a GP. None of the GPs I know have been given a bonus, but the Practice can manage it’s funds as it sees fit. I simply don’t think people understand that GPs are not employed by the health service, they are independently employed and can choose to work as few, or as many hours as they wish, so long as their Practice is in agreement. If all the part time GPs withdrew their services nobody would ever see a GP again! GPs are a scarce and precious resource.

And rare as hen’s teeth in some areas it seems.

I remember going to the GP feeling really awful with an ear infection. That practice was receiving incentive payments for smear tests so I was given one there and then. I was a bit too unwell to protest at the time but thought it was pretty money grubbing and dubiously ethical.