“Scottish government loses indyref2 court case”

Urms Yes I did !!
Interesting grannydarkhair
We were on a Med cruise just before the last referendum and as there was a flight from Scotland as well as Gatwick there were a lot of Scots on board.
Over the course of the cruise we got chatting to quite a few from north of the border and without exception they were all passionately opposed to independence.

Ok there again, not a large sample but one couple said generally speaking it was a bit of a class issue.

Callistemon21

Riverwalk

Boz

I am getting really bored with NS. Has she got nothing else to do but pursue this Nationalistic Agenda?

She's the leader of the Scottish National Party - what else do you want her to do? That's her job!

She's First Minister of Scotland.

I'm sure her agenda includes a lot more than Scottish Independence.

Yes, he has other duties but as far as I'm aware, and Scottish grans can correct me, the SNP's raison d'etre is to pursue independence for Scotland, so it's no use anyone getting bored with her doing this!

Holding a second independence referendum (despite the once in a generation claim for the first one) would not settle the issue. Sturgeon would simply claim for some outrageous reason it was invalid and demand another one. It's the only way she can keep the SNP in power despite their awful performance on education, health, etc.

Havers. SNP were never going to accept the referendum result. Brexit wasn't even mentioned in 2014.

Baggs

What happened to the "once in a generation" idea?

In a word...Brexit.

grannydarkhair

Although I don’t want Scotland to be an independent country, I’m of the opinion that there should be another referendum to hopefully settle the issue for the foreseeable future. People like me will again hopefully accept a yes majority.
I was at a family meal just days before the last referendum. Of 12 adults able to vote, 11 said they’d be voting no. All but one (myself, born in England but lived in Scotland since the age of four) had been born and lived all their lives in Scotland. The one vote for yes is German by birth and married into the family.
During recent conversations with most of the people mentioned above, the only person to have changed their mind and would change their vote is the one who voted yes the last time. She is thoroughly disappointed in how the Scottish gov. has performed over the last eight years, and is particularly enraged over their determination to pass the GRR bill.
I know this is a tiny sample, but within it, there is both sexes, a wide range of ages and professions/jobs.
Also at that meal eight years ago were three children who are all now in their 20s. Two I know would vote no, the other I haven’t spoken to for a while to ask.

I was on a coach holiday with a Scottish couple at the time of the referendum. The wife cried with relief when the result came through. She said the whole thing had been so divisive (as was the EU referendum). I just think that, with numerous problems we’re having at the moment, inflation, climate change etc we should work together as one nation to make things better. I just think that the SNP can’t bear the thought of a Labour government that improves the lot of everyone and negates their reasoning for independence and would rather people in both countries suffer. If I thought that absolutely everyone in Scotland wanted independence I would support it, but I don’t think they do. And, as with the EU referendum, it leads to people voting on just one issue when everything is always far more complicated than that. Has Scottish independence been fully costed? What will happen about their currency? Will they be allowed to rejoin the EU?

Riverwalk

Boz

I am getting really bored with NS. Has she got nothing else to do but pursue this Nationalistic Agenda?

She's the leader of the Scottish National Party - what else do you want her to do? That's her job!

She's First Minister of Scotland.

I'm sure her agenda includes a lot more than Scottish Independence.

Baggs

What happened to the "once in a generation" idea?

That's just it - it's a phrase/idea, not written in law. It was something said, doesn't mean it should last for a generation.

'Generation' is a rather abstract word in relation to time.

Boz

I am getting really bored with NS. Has she got nothing else to do but pursue this Nationalistic Agenda?

She's the leader of the Scottish National Party - what else do you want her to do? That's her job!

It may well have been said by the politicos at the time but unless it was made into law it's meaningless.

Yes, I understand that but it was in a Scottish Government White Paper so mot a myth that Baggs or I made up or a widely held but false belief or idea.

myth?

The Scottish Government White Paper states: “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

Callistemon21

Baggs

What happened to the "once in a generation" idea?

I was going to ask that too.

What is the definition of a generation in Scotland?

It was an unenforceable statement.

It may well have been said by the politicos at the time but unless it was made into law it's meaningless.

As we've discovered in relation to 'advisory referendum'...

Callistemon21

Baggs

What happened to the "once in a generation" idea?

I was going to ask that too.

What is the definition of a generation in Scotland?

That myth has been well and truly busted.

Baggs

What happened to the "once in a generation" idea?

I was going to ask that too.

What is the definition of a generation in Scotland?

It doesn’t feel very democratic to me.

I support a union, but I support a strong democracy even more.

I agree Maizie. I would be perfectly happy for Scotland to become independent if that was the result. However, as you say, if the result was no then almost certainly there would still be Scots campaigning for independence.
I feel the same way about Northern Ireland too. If they wanted to rejoin Southern Ireland I would be perfectly happy. I know it’s complicated, but I wonder if it would have been better if the British had never stayed there at all.

The Act of Union 1707 states quite clearly that for Scotland to regain independence both Westminster and Holyrood have to agree a referendum to decide the matter. Its like The Treaty of Utrecht regarding Gibraltar ,both sides have to agree in order to break the treaty. As it stands no way is Westminster budging on either of these issues

I read somewhere that defence plays a big part in not wanting Scotland to be an independent country. I can see that.
After all, Ireland decided to be a neutral country during the last war.Not NI of course.
Bet that you’re right MaizieD and even another ref won’t be the end of it.Cor Blimey! Imagine it going on and on to the end of the century.

I rather think that, regardless of whose facts are right or wrong, everyone has already made up their minds on this issue. To keep on debating it is only causing unnecessary rancour. One way or another it will be settled eventually - sooner rather than later would be better - and then we can get back to being supportive rather than divisive.

maddyone

I wish they’d just be allowed to have another referendum and then whatever the outcome, it’ll be done and dusted and we can all get on with the rest of our lives.

I don't think it would be done and dusted, even assuming the answer was 'no' to independence because there will always be Scots campaigning for it.

As to talk of 'once in a generation' by past PMs, sadly for those quoting it, one parliament (and presumably the then PM) can't bind the next. So statements like that are meaningless.

I would be perfectly happy for Scotland to become independent if that is the wish of the (super)majority.

I wish they’d just be allowed to have another referendum and then whatever the outcome, it’ll be done and dusted and we can all get on with the rest of our lives.

Blondiescot

Sorry, but where exactly is Edinborough? Or do you mean Edinburgh, our capital city?

That was the spell check and I didn't fancy arguing with it . I know it's Edinburgh I had my honeymoon there and visited many times.
I don't think we have had to find money to build hospitals and ours would be less full if we weren't taking them from the North.
You don't know what my opinion on Brexit was or how I voted. But you are certainly letting all and sundry know how you would vote.
Would the EU let an independent Scotland join and what about your coinage it's difficult to use Scottish currency in England now would they let you change to the Euro and all the complications it has brought between Ireland and Northern Ireland?
You would have to build Border posts at Stranraer as well or maybe the ferry traffic to Northern Ireland would all go to Liverpool and Holyhead and other English ports. Helpful to your economy I think not.

The Scottish Electorate voted decisively to remain in the EU, but were dragged out against their will.
It is over 45 years since a majority of Scottish voters voted for a Conservative Government.
Mrs Thatcher decreed that all it took for Scotland to become independent was for Scottish voters to elect a majority of pro Independence MPs to Westminster. They have done that several times now and also the Scottish Parliament has a majority of elected representatives who are pro independence.
As has been explained umpteen times on GN, there was never an official or written statement that the 2014 referendum was "once in a lifetime" It was a throwaway remark by Alex Salmond,

I watched PMQs today. Sunak was asked at least 6 times if there was a legal way for Scotland to withdraw from the Union but he dodged the question every time.

Why are they so keen to hang on to Scotland? - perhaps it is
because Scotland, with only 8.4 percent of the UK's population has -
32% 0f the UK's Landmass & 62% of the maritime area
26% of renewable energy and90% of hydropower.
90% of the UK's fresh water, 96% of UK's crude oil +63% of oil, 40% pf UK's wind &tidal power, 60% of Timber production &70% of fish landings, £17,456 worth of exported goods per head while RUK's figure is£8,648.
These are all verifiable official figures.

PS I have recently learnt that the value of Scotch whisky, waiting to mature in bonded warehouses, is equal to the value of the gold bullion held by the Bank of England.

Thank you for that LadyHonoriaDedlock

Since I work for the Scottish government I have to be very careful what I say but I can assure Septimia's DH that

1. Like any other political party the SNP doesn't have any money other than what it raises through donations, membership subscriptions and fundraising. It uses that for campaigning, which is the SNP's function. It certainly doesn't have any money to invest in the NHS even if it could.

2. The Scottish Government is not the SNP, even if it is largely made up of MSPs whose election campaigns were funded by the SNP, with a couple of Green SNPs thrown in. The reason for this compostion is that in the Holyrood elections of 2021, SNP-backed candidates were elected by a near landslide, almost securing an overall majority in an electoral system specifically designed to avoid such an eventuality, on the basis of a manifesto commitment to working towards independence. If the Scottish government were to allocate any money and resources to SNP or Green campaigning it would be in deep trouble, just as an individual MSP would be if she used Holyrood resources for party business. Remember Owen Paterson?

3. I know a lot of what goes on and I know that the First Minister works long hours on many government-related issues including attracting investment into Scotland, and external commitments related to her role. If she's seen in the media south of the border only when she speaks of independence then that only reflects what was very plain to me when I moved up here, that the London media largely ignores issues relating to Scotland. For the record I'll say this about the FM: she demands 120% from her staff and in return she'd lay down her life. In many ways she's still the working-class Ayrshire lassie with working-class Ayrshire values. I say this because I don't recognise in the person many of the slurs that are thrown about by people who know nothing.

I say this as an English-born adopted Scot. Who, by the way, has never experienced any anti-English abuse. I won't say it doesn't happen, only that I haven't seen it.