Downs Syndrome and Abortion.

Was that an amniocentesis test, GrannyGravy?

I had my children at 37 and 42, so I was at high risk of having Downs Syndrome babies. I had an amniocentesis test @ 18 weeks with both babies and had to wait a couple of weeks for the results. We had already decided that we would terminate, but fortunately both tests were negative, so we never had to make the decision.

An amnio is 100% accurate, but there's a chance of damage to the foetus, so it was all very nerve-wracking.

Oh gg13 what a joyful outcome. I think though that tests now can show very accurately whether DS was present and you would have been saved such fear and heartache,

OK, my last pregnancy I was told my baby was highly likely to have Downs Syndrome due to my age and DH’s, tests confirmed this.

This was two days before Christmas which we were celebrating with friends and family at Centre Parcs.

I knew I couldn’t terminate, friends formed a cocoon of love and support round me until delivery, baby was delivered without Downs.

Tests are not 100% accurate.

I think it unlikely that any of us will be aborting or killing a viable foetus, but if I found out I was carrying a Downs baby I absolutely would not have it. I would terminate the pregnancy. I would sincerely hope that I found out long before 39 weeks though. Goodness, I’ve never carried a baby to 39 weeks. Two were born at 38 weeks and one at 34 weeks.

Daddima

Whitewavemark2

But saying that the only apparent proviso was that the foetus was suffering from Down’s syndrome and most are born perfectly viable.

I agree, wwm2. Few people knew that abortion up to term has always been legal in certain cases, so this young woman’s campaign will hopefully raise awareness, and maybe put resources into place to support women who have to make the decision and also to support people with Down’s to live a full and independent life.

The trouble is, Daddima, is that although some people with Down’s are very high functioning, many are not, and will never be independent - they will need looking after to a great or lesser extent for their whole lives. I know of one such, and it’s a great worry to the parents to think who’s going to fill the gap after they’re gone.

I too have worked with handicapped children, they were in a care home, one, a thalidomide baby had no limbs, was blind and deaf, being kept alive. It made me really think about options.

The law has been the same for a very long time. Medical science has improved, though, so I could argue that the law is outdated, given advances in prenatal diagnosis and care. My daughter's friends kept their baby - after much indecision and discussion on how they'd cope, how it would impact on his brother - and whether it was cruel to bring him into this 'uncaring society' as a disabled child.

Another thing that's changed dramatically (over the last few decades) is life expectancy for a Downs Syndrome child. Now, there's often the additional nightmare of realising that they'll probably outlive parents, siblings and wider family - so will be in care for their later years (care they won't be able to provide).

He's such a beautiful, happy boy. His mother gave up work, they moved to a smaller house, he had several heart operations as a baby and his development was very delayed. They all worry (a lot) about him, especially his brother, they're devoted, positive and so aware of his 'rights' as a disabled person, often, they say, as a 'second class citizen, needing care - bordering subhuman' in our (so called 'caring') society.

I couldn't do it but I wont stand in judgement of some poor woman and her partner who feel they have no choice,My mother bled so heavily during a labour her life was at risk.Her priest told the Doctor the baby must be saved,my father disagreed ,the priest insisted he had the right to make the choice.
My fathers decision was accepted by the doctor and they never went back to church again.Their baby ,my sister was born alive and lived 9 hours.My mother never recovered from that loss ,she was guilt ridden for the rest of her life.
Sometimes we have to make judgement calls that no one can understand and never will .Just be grateful it wasn't you who had to do it .

A drug is usually administered to stop the foetus’s heart prior to the termination procedure. Late TOP’s are a very rare event, 0.1% of all abortions. More data here. www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2020/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2020

I feel very sorry for anyone having to make such a decision, I doubt anyone does it on a whim.

On the other hand some children are born so very severely disabled that the quality of their life is dreadful.

Oh dear - I think what I’m having real difficulty with is the killing of foetus.

I think this is beyond me - I’m dropping out here

To be fair to the judge he said that it was not for the Courts or himself to amend the law but to uphold it and he is quite right.

He said it was a matter for Parliament to change laws.

This was the wrong place for their challenge but I guess they did it for the publicity. As it will be if they take it to the Supreme Court.

The judges there can’t change the law either.

Witzend

Surely an abortion anywhere near full term must be extremely rare. I do know of someone who had one - or rather perhaps an induced labour - at 7 months, but that was because it was found out quite late that the baby had some condition that meant it would live only for a few hours, if that. It was utterly heartbreaking for the parents, who however did get to hold him for a very short while before he died.

Thats the sort of scenario I'd assumed.

Problem with headlines like this is that Downs syndrome has hugely varying outcomes so its easy to jump on the "Shock horror bandwagon."

Not life at any cost at all, but I cant be happy with terminating that late a life that could be well lived.

But not a life spent for example 4/5 years on life support unable to see or hear or breathe independently sometimes on pain for "life's sake".

Kandinsky

*I simply can’t imagine killing a potentially viable foetus knowingly*

Don’t do it then, your choice. But don’t take that choice away from other women.

Well, I’m having real angst over this.

Choice to parent a severely disabled child is very different to deciding to take away the life of a potential viable human.

I simply can’t imagine killing a potentially viable foetus knowingly

Don’t do it then, your choice. But don’t take that choice away from other women.

Whitewavemark2

But saying that the only apparent proviso was that the foetus was suffering from Down’s syndrome and most are born perfectly viable.

I agree, wwm2. Few people knew that abortion up to term has always been legal in certain cases, so this young woman’s campaign will hopefully raise awareness, and maybe put resources into place to support women who have to make the decision and also to support people with Down’s to live a full and independent life.

Kandinsky

Isn’t it obvious that’s what happens?

No not to me I’m afraid.

I simply can’t imagine killing a potentially viable foetus knowingly.

It is something I find the stuff of nightmares.

I’ve never been more grateful for the hide function
Love to all who have been in this predicament, one way or another

Isn’t it obvious that’s what happens?

I asked the question on MN - the reply - it is killed before it is induced.

Oh dear I don’t think I can absorb that very easily.

The law hasnt changed, it was an appeal to change the current law which applies to a range of conditions.

But saying that the only apparent proviso was that the foetus was suffering from Down’s syndrome and most are born perfectly viable.

That’s what I am hoping is the case, that the foetus is not expected to live.

But undoubtedly there are some aborted who survive against the odds.

Surely an abortion anywhere near full term must be extremely rare. I do know of someone who had one - or rather perhaps an induced labour - at 7 months, but that was because it was found out quite late that the baby had some condition that meant it would live only for a few hours, if that. It was utterly heartbreaking for the parents, who however did get to hold him for a very short while before he died.

I need more information on this before ready to comment - there are too many "what if's" and "well then whats".