Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

It is not hard to find examples - ones which no one here would feel acceptable - of a tiny minority of trans women abusing situations.

For centuries the more vulnerable in our society have been abused by a number of predatory adults. Including a small number of women in positions of power or authority. (Want example - the young nurse who killed babies, etc, etc) Women can also be very coercively abusive to children and family members. Gransnet has had many threads on this sort of abuse.

Abuse is not acceptable from anyone.

I have no problems with transwomen using facilities I use or my DS or DGC use anymore than any other group. It's not the fact they are trans that abuse occurs - it is because they are abusive people. I am happy to use the words "women" and pronouns accordingly with my Quaker trans friend. You couldn't wish for a more gentle soul. Indeed, likely to be vulnerable.

Its about time we recognised the levels of abuse against trans people and stopped making assumptions about a whole series of very different individuals.

Wyllow, the example of the attack in Morrison's was in response to Glorianny's assertion that all the evidence from places where transgender people have had access to public toilets for some time shows that there is no threat, which is clearly nonsense.

As has been said a million times, nobody thinks that all transwomen are dangerous or that attacks on transpeople are acceptable. However, as long as men can access female spaces simply by saying they are women, there will be some men who will abuse that and women (and children) will suffer.

Well, this thread went in some strange directions! I was once accused of being a man on a rock music forum because I ‘knew too much’

Doodledog

*Wyllow*, the example of the attack in Morrison's was in response to Glorianny's assertion that all the evidence from places where transgender people have had access to public toilets for some time shows that there is no threat, which is clearly nonsense.

As has been said a million times, nobody thinks that all transwomen are dangerous or that attacks on transpeople are acceptable. However, as long as men can access female spaces simply by saying they are women, there will be some men who will abuse that and women (and children) will suffer.

Interesting that the only instance of a transwoman attack was from 3 years ago, proving perhaps that such events are neither common nor usual. And of course if trans people are to use the facilities which match their birth sex transmen will be in women's facilities so challenging anyone who looks male will be a problem.

I don't consider it acceptable that the UK is now aligned with right wing countries like Poland and Turkey for the degree of transphobia experienced eachother.org.uk/council-of-europe-criticises-uks-treatment-of-transgender-people/

I'm sure it's the aim of many trans ideology supporters to remove all words which distinguish people's sex.

Yes, I think you're right.

Newspaper reports in particular are written in such a way as to remove pronouns altogether from transpeople. Look at this example from the BBC.

They are talking about an male offender who had impregnated a 14 year old girl (so nothing female about him), but you wouldn't know it from the language:

The offender, whose name was recorded as Danielle-Rose Gemini by Leicester Crown Court, was jailed for nine-and-a-half years.
Leicestershire Police - who said the 25-year-old identified as a woman at the time of the offences - were not able to give a current gender identity.
The defendant was also charged with raping the girl, but was found not guilty of this following the trial.
Det Con Sarah Le Boutillier, the investigating officer, said: "Throughout our interviews, Orton refused to accept that there was any wrongdoing and [claimed] that they were in fact the victim.
"The claims were unfounded."

Not a male pronoun in sight.

I have said for years now on these threads that language matters, because it really does. If we can't talk about men and women using one word for one and another for the other, we won't be able to differentiate between the sexes, and if men can become 'she' even when they are in court for rape, the concept of men and women will cease to exist.

When that happens, we will all blend into one sex, which may seem egalitarian, but with no protections in place women will soon become not the weaker sex (as the idea of a sex won't exist), but a collection of weaker individuals who can be picked off one at a time, with no legal or social sanctions for those who want to take advantage of their strength. When women are no longer a concept, there can be no sexism against us - except that of course there will - what will change is that there will cease to be legal recourse against it. There will no longer be anywhere we can go to get away from men if we need to - no refuges (literal or metaphorical) if we feel in danger, no privacy, no space for women to be with other women if we want or need to. All will be 'equal', which will mean that biological women may as well forget about competing in sport, and who knows what will become of maternity provision in the workplace and so on. And don't forget that this is a deeply exclusive way of thinking, as women from many religions will have their lives curtailed if they are unable to be around men when they are undressed, or at different times around menstruation, childbirth etc.

And why? Because a small number of people have 'a feeling' that they are 'in the wrong body' - something that is being encouraged by increasingly discredited agencies such as Mermaids and The Tavistock.

Interesting that the only instance of a transwoman attack was from 3 years ago

Are you serious? That was the first one that came up when I searched, and as I said, it was difficult to find search terms when the trans lobby police language so assiduously. Are you now setting parameters for acceptable responses to your false assertions? A bit rich from someone who can't be bothered to answer direct questions when they are put to you!

People in the 'wrong' loos is going to happen - we all know that. What we don't want is for it to be legal or socially acceptable.

I would still like to know more about the 'masculine-looking women' who are always getting asked to prove their sex who you keep going on about. Where does this happen, and in what circumstances? Who takes it upon themselves to question a woman who looks like a man? And why, given that female-male assault is vanishingly rare outside of domestic situations? How often does it happen?

So it seems that if facilities were labelled male and female, some would still support the right of males to use them even though that would involve lying?
Yet there is no suggestion from them about how harmful males can be prevented from accessing female facilities, only a rebuttal of any propositions made and the burden placed on females to deal with any attacks, instead of having the confidence that they would not encounter harmful males in female facilities.
In every other situation of potential illegal or dangerous action, it is accepted that measures have to be put in place.
Not everyone shoplifts, but store detectives and CCTV are accepted to protect the stores.
Not every airline passenger is a terrorist, but we accept the measures put in place to protect us.

Not all males are dangerous to females, but the resistance to measures being put in place to protect females from those males who adopt a disguise specifically to give them easier opportunities to harm females is astonishing.

Glorianni
Have you seen the transgender problems in the most powerful country in Europe: Germany

www.dw.com/en/trans-germany/a-56031861

Mollygo

So it seems that if facilities were labelled male and female, some would still support the right of males to use them even though that would involve lying?
Yet there is no suggestion from them about how harmful males can be prevented from accessing female facilities, only a rebuttal of any propositions made and the burden placed on females to deal with any attacks, instead of having the confidence that they would not encounter harmful males in female facilities.
In every other situation of potential illegal or dangerous action, it is accepted that measures have to be put in place.
Not everyone shoplifts, but store detectives and CCTV are accepted to protect the stores.
Not every airline passenger is a terrorist, but we accept the measures put in place to protect us.

Not all males are dangerous to females, but the resistance to measures being put in place to protect females from those males who adopt a disguise specifically to give them easier opportunities to harm females is astonishing.

But it wouldn't protect women Mollygo it would simply remove the necessity of dressing up to access facilities for any abusive male who on a whim could pass a women's toilet and just walk in. No planning, no pretending. If challenged he can say he's a transman. So either transmen would be subjected to lots of unnecessary abuse (and let's remember you think they are women) or any male can walk into any toilet at any time. So which is more likely that a male intent on abuse will go to the trouble of dressing as a transwoman or that he will just walk in and claim he's a transman?
It is absolutely nothing to do with "supporting the rights of males" but of looking at practicalities and reducing the likelihood of harm.

Doodledog

*Interesting that the only instance of a transwoman attack was from 3 years ago*

Are you serious? That was the first one that came up when I searched, and as I said, it was difficult to find search terms when the trans lobby police language so assiduously. Are you now setting parameters for acceptable responses to your false assertions? A bit rich from someone who can't be bothered to answer direct questions when they are put to you!

People in the 'wrong' loos is going to happen - we all know that. What we don't want is for it to be legal or socially acceptable.

I would still like to know more about the 'masculine-looking women' who are always getting asked to prove their sex who you keep going on about. Where does this happen, and in what circumstances? Who takes it upon themselves to question a woman who looks like a man? And why, given that female-male assault is vanishingly rare outside of domestic situations? How often does it happen?

I've posted links in the past Doodledog which you obviously failed to read. Interesting that you think a 3 year old case is important but you fail to read the opinions of women who have been abused for the way they look. I suppose it proves your concern is not really for all women.

Has this rather bizarre scenario ever happened, to your knowledge, Glorianny. You've posted about that possibility before, too, but it sounds like a plot from a Brian Rix farce, tbh. Or a rather desperate attempt to 'outwit' fact-based feminists* who object to men being in there at all. The logic seems to be 'Stop moaning, women. Men will do what they like whatever you say, so why not wheesht and leave them to it?'

*a more accurate name for so-called Gender Critical feminists - shamelessly stolen from Hadley Freeman, whose interview on Woman's Hour is available on BBC Sounds and is well worth a listen. It's about how the trans lobby is silencing feminist journalists, (with particular reference to the Guardian, sad to say).

My last post referred to the men dressing as women dressed as men scenario above. We cross-posted, sorry.

I've posted links in the past Doodledog which you obviously failed to read. Interesting that you think a 3 year old case is important but you fail to read the opinions of women who have been abused for the way they look. I suppose it proves your concern is not really for all women.

'Failed to read them' 😂

Sorry, Miss. The dog ate my homework. The three year old case is almost certainly extremely 'important' to the child concerned, her mother, and the other woman who was attacked in a similar way in Asda by the same man. I doubt that even after three whole years they will have forgotten it. That you appear to think otherwise says a lot about your 'care for women' if we are trading insults.

I just find it astonishing that thread after thread focuses on a small number of abusive men who are using the "garb" of trans to be abusive.

Yet we had a thread not so long ago where it was absolutely clear that there is institutionalised absuive racism and sexism amongst white males in the fire force in London, and its expected its not just in London. Where are the pages and pages of critique, reason for, what to do about it, to protect the vulnerable? I dont see it coming from the posters here who repeat again and again the same "examples" - of course deplorable- of abuse by people who CALL themselves transwomen. can you not see just how divisive it is in terms of us women standing together against abuse by men? Or is it that it happens so much, and even in our lives, we chose to obsess about trans abuse?

Night after night the police are called to incidents of domestic abuse and its men on women mostly. What are we doing to address that instead of obsessing about pronouns?

There are those on here who seem to hate all men, so aggressive. I don’t agree with a lot of the very extreme views expressed best to leave them to it.

Allsorts

There are those on here who seem to hate all men, so aggressive. I don’t agree with a lot of the very extreme views expressed best to leave them to it.

And you work that out how exactly?

Hate all men? Evidence please.

Count me out on hating all men! I find bullying and abuse abhorrent wherever I find it. Assertive - yes - I'm currently getting out of a marriage where coercive abuse was present enough to involve the police, arrest, and so on - but I don't hate all men.

I feel strongly about a society that allows abuse to continue wherever I find it, and here I find transphobia and fear which isnt actually addressing the problems of what leads to abuse.

Discussing Male violence isnt hating men. Crikey I havent heard that for a long time.

I don't remember seeing anyone saying that transmen must use female facilities.
What has been said is that female facilities should be for females only.

Transmen are not a risk to men, so there's no problem with them using male facilities, unless they prefer female ones because they don't pass as male.

Exactly equal treatment for both sexes doesn't really work, in many situations.

I didn't happen to see that thread about firefighters Wyllow3, so that could be why I didn't post on it.

I certainly don't hate all men - what a strange idea. I thought the days when standing up for women were equated with hating men were long gone.

Wyllow, I agree with you that assertiveness is not the same as hating, and feel the same about expressing my views that TMANW. I believe in the science, and that it is not possible to change sex. I worry about the corruption of the language that I feel is attempting to erase women. And I'm sorry, but the stuff about the fire brigade etc is whataboutery. I also abhor violence and abuse (who doesn't?), but it makes no sense to forget about all threats to women because other kinds of abuse are also happening.

I agree with FN about the fact that transmen are not an issue for fact-based feminists, as they do not pose a threat to either men or women.

sigh...I dont feel erased, nor in danger of it. My POV is that I'm proud to be a woman, and a feminist, I'd like to find ways of people changing so there is less male on female abuse...and if a very small number of transwomen (as in genuine) want to join me as another woman - I do not feel threatened, nor do I feel society is threatened/would be threatened.

In my experience younger people - like DS and DiL (early 40's) - don't see is at the huge issue expressed by some here. DS is a lecturer at a uni, and again, except for the academic disagreements that rage on the issues, it doesn't give rise in the student population to the same level of feelings as amongst us older women.

I'm afraid it reminds me rather grimly of some of the things said about gay people, men in particular, in the early 1970's when those were the issues that divided people and such hate and disturbance came out.

But I don't think its realistic for transwomen to take part in the same events as women born as such: I am practice politically involved in discussions about whether there should be gender recognition certificates and how they should be obtained - but as soon as we enter discussions on this, we come up against a total dearth of resources.

You do know that many of those who are raising concerns about many of the issues on this subject are gay men and in particular lesbians.
The information coming from some of the female to Male de transitioners is that homophobia was a reason for transition.

🙄🙄🙄