Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

Smileless2012

You've posted numerous times across these threads that most women do not object to the presence of trans women Gloriany, do you have any evidence to support this.

Where do men self identifying as women fit into this as for me, there's a huge difference between the two and a man self identifying as a woman isn't a trans woman?

Also, you've been asked numerous times to support your claim that 'masculine looking women' have been shouted at and asked to leave toilets for females, and have yet to do so.

Here's proof it's happening in London
www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/lesbian-couple-ordered-out-cinema-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-men

And even in M&S (although to be fair the woman staff member didn't know about hidden disabilities either)https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/19/woman-barred-from-ms-toilets-by-worker-who-mistook-her-for-a-man-16675654/

Sorry metro.co.uk/2022/05/19/woman-barred-from-ms-toilets-by-worker-who-mistook-her-for-a-man-16675654/

Oh, silly me.

Of course it couldn't be right if it supports Glorianny's point,

I'll pop off again. Toodle oo.
Oh you're getting worse. Stop assigning motives to people based on your own way of doing things. I am not disputing anything 'because it supports Glorianny's post'. That's ridiculous.

Pop off, by all means. There's no need to announce your departure - this is not an airport.

For those still here, this is what I was talking about yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Despite being such a prominent battleground in the trans-rights debate, Britons tend to support transgender people using their new gender’s toilet (46-49% vs 28-30% opposed) and changing rooms (42-45% vs 32-34% opposed).

Women tend to reject the argument that allowing transgender women to use female facilities puts them at risk. By 46% to 28% women say that doing so does not present any genuine risk of harm. Men are more sceptical, thinking such a move puts women in danger by 31% to 37%. Among the overall population 39% believe there to be no genuine risk compared to 32% who disagree.

It is worth noting, however, that Britons do not support such access for those who have not yet undergone gender reassignment surgery. By 41-46% to 26-30% people oppose those who have not physically transitioned being able to use their new gender’s changing rooms. Likewise, 39-41% oppose them being able to use their new gender’s toilets, compared to 31-32% who are in support.

None of the figures add up to 100, suggesting a lot of 'don't care's, and people who haven't thought about it much; but there is a difference in opinion when talking about surgically transitioned people and self-identified ones.

Right.

A whole different survey with a whole different set of questions, then.

My departure was delayed. Probably the bad weather.

Thanks for the links vovlver and Glorianny.

It is important I think Doodledog, to make it very clear and where appropriate differentiate between a fully transitioned trans woman, a trans woman whose male genitalia are in tact and a man whose identifying as a woman.

M&S seem to be in dire need of diversity training.

First they open their changing rooms to all comers, then they evict lesbians from the Ladies. They seem to have it in for women on all fronts, and considering that women make up the vast majority of their customers it's no wonder they are struggling.

Maybe in the cinema (where there are children going to the loo on their own more than in many venues) the perceived risk is greater now that anyone can say they are a woman? I can see how the confusion arose, but TBH all of those people look like women to me. The young one maybe would be more easily taken for a boy, but you'd have to think twice.

The thing is, people get things wrong all the time. How many people get asked for proof of age long over the age of 18? It must have been embarrassing for the women concerned, but I'm not sure that this is anything like a good reason for throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It seems more like clutching at straws to make a case for abolishing single-sex facilities.

And the responses with regard to refuges sport prisons crime statistics would be very different.
Consent and single sex spaces also dont work like that. You cant give consent for other people.

I'm on a time delay (I'm in the car and in and out of signal).

Yes, Smileless, that does make a difference to a lot of people (me included). I know not everyone agrees, but IMO transitioned transwomen are different from self identified ones when it comes to using female facilities. Neither are women, but someone using female hormones and with no penis is unlikely to be a threat. I would ban them from competitive sport at professional level, but otherwise can't think of any are as where they should not be treated as honorary women. Self-identifiers are, IMO a different kettle of fish.

And yes, volver, it is a different survey - I was asking if it was the same one because I remembered one where the results differed when the questions were made more transparent (not because your reply supported Glorianny🙄).

I dont know if there is evidence of that doodle, and it's not just about threat is it, it's about the fact that the presence of men (whatever they may have done to their bodies) will mean that some women will exclude themselves from those spaces.
I hope doodle wont mind me saying that we disagree on some of this but that we remain respectful in our disagreement and also cope with the fact that whilst we may disagree on this point we agree on others.

Sorry that sounded weird

Glorianny

Smileless2012

You've posted numerous times across these threads that most women do not object to the presence of trans women Gloriany, do you have any evidence to support this.

Where do men self identifying as women fit into this as for me, there's a huge difference between the two and a man self identifying as a woman isn't a trans woman?

Also, you've been asked numerous times to support your claim that 'masculine looking women' have been shouted at and asked to leave toilets for females, and have yet to do so.

Here's proof it's happening in London
www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/lesbian-couple-ordered-out-cinema-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-men

Goodness, nearly 8 years ago, how very current! Can't be that many incidents if this is all google could come up with. This was horrible for the women concerned, I don't see how the cinema staff couldn't see they were women, but it hardly confirms widespread occurrence such as you've stated.

Galaxy

Sorry that sounded weird

Not at all . I know we disagree, but that's fine. I disagree with lots of people on lots of things, but most people manage, like yourself, to be respectful and refrain from sneering and patronising, and I try to do the same.

There is, of course, the religious and cultural aspect of this, and it is important, you are right. I have no idea what an imam or rabbi (or other religious leader) would say about surgically transitioned transwomen in these circumstances, and these days I have no obvious way of finding out. I know it's not the same thing, but eunuchs were 'invented' so that men could be around women without offending propriety - would that view be taken, with surgically transitioned men being seen in the same way?

As is constantly repeated and repeated gender is a socially constructed idea, not rooted in biological fact as is Sex identity, And the last time I looked there were over 120 different genders so I’m not way out in thinking that as gender identity is exponentially increasing into unlimited genders just by tagging the prefix gender on to any state of mind you can imagine yourself to be ( we used to call this fantasising ) How will this pan out within Law Safety, equality etc. who can know because the mind just boggles. As an example Abimegender = a gender that is profound deep and infinite, meant to resemble when one mirror is reflecting into another mirror creating an infinite reflection. There’s a flag colour for it too.
I think I’ve fallen into Alice in Wonderlands matrix /rabbit hole. “I knew who I was this morning.But I’ve changed a few times since then”
And does anyone know if the authorities are they allowing animals and (unaccompanied) baby’s into prisons now that people are identifying as such.

I’m not sure who it was, Glorianny, Volver, or, VS etc, who criticised people for attributing things to them, that they haven’t said, but Glorianny, if it was you, you need to take your own advice.
You say
If you want to imagine that transwomen are standing (or sitting) in every women's toilet waiting to attack that's up to you.

I’m asking where I’ve said I do that?

Glorianny, you said,
Apparently none of that matters. People don't seem too understand that blaming transpeople for the actions of a few individuals creates a culture which breeds transphobia

I asked,
Who blames all transpeople for the actions of the few?
You keep saying that, but who is it you are talking about?

You don’t or can’t answer . . . O sorry, maybe you decline to answer.

What can be seen on here is people blaming the few TiM whose actions harm, endanger or distress females. You and others refuse to see that.

I didn’t expect a response to this, but I’m repeating it because it’s the the truth you et al keep missing.
What you also see is people pointing out what impact the actions of those TiM I mentioned above and the TRA who attack female groups in the name of supporting trans has on the public perception of transpeople and THAT is what breeds the transphobia you mention.

It doesn’t matter how you dress it up, the people causing most transphobia are the harmful TiM and the violent TRA supporters, not the females trying to retain the rights that those TiM and their supporters, are claiming for themselves.