Eddie Izzard not chosen to be Labour candidate for Sheffield Central.

I don't care about Eddie Izzard's choice of gender. I do care about their self-identification onto a woman-only shortlist. We can do without that kind of colonisation.

What I struggle with is that women are very unequal in society and we still fight to get parity, and I find it unpleasant that someone who has lived as a man for many years and gained that social, economic, hormonal, healthcare etc advantage can declare themselves to be female.
It takes more than a frock, some falsies, a bit of slap, and medical treatment to make someone understand what it really means to be a woman. And allowing anyone who has had testosterone advantage in earlier years to compete against those born and remaining female in competitive arenas seems wrong. Yes nature plays bad tricks on some people, may be some are fluid, what about getting rid of either male or female and creating 4 categories of male,female, male now female (post puberty), and female now male.
What is vitally important is that women (who are the most likely sex to be preyed upon) have safe spaces to be.
This is going to be an increasing problem but I hope that those undergoing changes do not regret that choice.

FarNorth

Yes of course transmen are female , it's not just that 'some people' say they are.

Any people who say transmen are not female have completely lost the plot.

Very true!

Thank goodness common sense prevailed.

FarNorth

Yes of course transmen are female , it's not just that 'some people' say they are.

Any people who say transmen are not female have completely lost the plot.

Very true, FarNorth.

Yes of course transmen are female , it's not just that 'some people' say they are.

Any people who say transmen are not female have completely lost the plot.

Yes, they could but not as a consequence of transwomen staying out of women's toilets/changing rooms/hospital wards etc.

The two things are not equivalent and the situation you suggest is far less likely than the fake transwoman situation that is increasingly being ushered in.

The hospital ward situation would be helped, of course, by the NHS not pretending that people's sex is a matter of choice rather than fact.

FarNorth

I don't remember seeing anyone saying that transmen must use female facilities.
What has been said is that female facilities should be for females only.

Transmen are not a risk to men, so there's no problem with them using male facilities, unless they prefer female ones because they don't pass as male.

Exactly equal treatment for both sexes doesn't really work, in many situations.

But FarNorth are you saying that female facilities must be for females only? And don't some people believe transmen are female? So wouldn't they be allowed to use them? And if so what is to stop any man accessing them and just saying they are a transman if challenged?
It is just as likely as the masquerading as a transwoman scenario. So it really gives no protection from men intent on accessing women's facilities.

Not most of our elected politicians, clearly.

Somehow, I don't think the number will continue to be 'very small'.
It’s not the number, it’s what that number do with it. We’re told there have been multitudes of TiM for ages.
The number that has already increased is the number of TiM who have used it for unpleasant or harmful purposes.
E.g. accessing female spaces, cheating in sport, claiming the right to be in female prisons even when they’re convicted of rape etc.
That’s the number I think will increase. Oh yes, and the falsification of records, e.g. TiM rape being recorded as female ‘rape’ crimes.

But who cares about that in Scotland?

FarNorth

^very small number of transwomen (as in genuine)^

In Scotland, we are likely very shortly to have law that says anyone can be legally recognised as a woman - completely on their own say-so and with only 3 months wait.
Somehow, I don't think the number will continue to be 'very small'.

Shall we have a bet on it, then?

I don't gamble, but this is one I won't lose, so it might be worth it.

I'm afraid it reminds me rather grimly of some of the things said about gay people, men in particular, in the early 1970's when those were the issues that divided people and such hate and disturbance came out.

The difference is, those things were based on prejudice whereas our concerns are based on known facts about abusive men.

No, FN, unfortunately I think you are right.

very small number of transwomen (as in genuine)

In Scotland, we are likely very shortly to have law that says anyone can be legally recognised as a woman - completely on their own say-so and with only 3 months wait.
Somehow, I don't think the number will continue to be 'very small'.

sigh...I dont feel erased, nor in danger of it.
groan. . . Well that's great for you, but there's no need to dismiss the concerns of those who feel differently.

We've had all the digs about the issue being for old people who are also homophobic (many times, sometimes with added accusations of racism thrown in), but please remember that you know absolutely nothing about any of the posters on these or any threads, whether that is their age, race or sexuality. Also, constantly harking back to the 70s (which were 50 years ago) is hardly a sign that the harkers are forward-thinking youths .

Agreed, Galaxy. IMO much, if not most of the homophobia is coming from the TRAs.

🙄🙄🙄

You do know that many of those who are raising concerns about many of the issues on this subject are gay men and in particular lesbians.
The information coming from some of the female to Male de transitioners is that homophobia was a reason for transition.

sigh...I dont feel erased, nor in danger of it. My POV is that I'm proud to be a woman, and a feminist, I'd like to find ways of people changing so there is less male on female abuse...and if a very small number of transwomen (as in genuine) want to join me as another woman - I do not feel threatened, nor do I feel society is threatened/would be threatened.

In my experience younger people - like DS and DiL (early 40's) - don't see is at the huge issue expressed by some here. DS is a lecturer at a uni, and again, except for the academic disagreements that rage on the issues, it doesn't give rise in the student population to the same level of feelings as amongst us older women.

I'm afraid it reminds me rather grimly of some of the things said about gay people, men in particular, in the early 1970's when those were the issues that divided people and such hate and disturbance came out.

But I don't think its realistic for transwomen to take part in the same events as women born as such: I am practice politically involved in discussions about whether there should be gender recognition certificates and how they should be obtained - but as soon as we enter discussions on this, we come up against a total dearth of resources.

I certainly don't hate all men - what a strange idea. I thought the days when standing up for women were equated with hating men were long gone.

Wyllow, I agree with you that assertiveness is not the same as hating, and feel the same about expressing my views that TMANW. I believe in the science, and that it is not possible to change sex. I worry about the corruption of the language that I feel is attempting to erase women. And I'm sorry, but the stuff about the fire brigade etc is whataboutery. I also abhor violence and abuse (who doesn't?), but it makes no sense to forget about all threats to women because other kinds of abuse are also happening.

I agree with FN about the fact that transmen are not an issue for fact-based feminists, as they do not pose a threat to either men or women.

I didn't happen to see that thread about firefighters Wyllow3, so that could be why I didn't post on it.

I don't remember seeing anyone saying that transmen must use female facilities.
What has been said is that female facilities should be for females only.

Transmen are not a risk to men, so there's no problem with them using male facilities, unless they prefer female ones because they don't pass as male.

Exactly equal treatment for both sexes doesn't really work, in many situations.

Discussing Male violence isnt hating men. Crikey I havent heard that for a long time.

Count me out on hating all men! I find bullying and abuse abhorrent wherever I find it. Assertive - yes - I'm currently getting out of a marriage where coercive abuse was present enough to involve the police, arrest, and so on - but I don't hate all men.

I feel strongly about a society that allows abuse to continue wherever I find it, and here I find transphobia and fear which isnt actually addressing the problems of what leads to abuse.

Allsorts

There are those on here who seem to hate all men, so aggressive. I don’t agree with a lot of the very extreme views expressed best to leave them to it.

And you work that out how exactly?

Hate all men? Evidence please.