Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

If anything my experiences have strengthened my POV as to what the underlying troubles are, and they are, as I stated.

They are not as you stated since my concerns are definitely not transphobia.

Galaxy

Crikey lady honoria could you be any more patronising. I and the other women involved in these discussions dont need press barons to tell us anything, we were involved in these issues long before the press became interested. The contempt shown for the public is always lovely to watch though.
I am currently aware of a number of wonen who have been assaulted within the prison service and of legal action being taken with regard to refuges to ensure they provide one, just one, single sex refuge in a geographical area. I am afraid your knowledge on the subject isnt as comprehensive as you seem to think.
As for move along, nothing to see, that's what they said about the tavistock, mermaids, puberty blockers, and oops that wasnt quite accurate was it?

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Doodledog

Well I wonder, now that the SNP has won, whether people will feel able to say what they think without worrying about appearing disloyal. I know several women who have been really worried about this, and some who are involved with the SNP at various levels who have felt simultaneously scared of the act and scared of saying so. Whether they will now be able to speak their minds or will feel more disinclined to do so remains to be seen. I don't envy them, tbh. It's bad enough being in the Labour Party, but I am only involved at local level and even then in a very limited capacity.

The SNP "won"? Now who's being patronising?

The Greens, the Lib Dems, and the Labour and Tory MSPs who voted with them would like a word with you.

It's not misandry to point out that men commit certain crimes at a completely different rate to women.

Reading through the posts in this thread I must admit I have noticed a certain amount of misandry in several of them.

I have some sense that the labour party is becoming a little more open to discussion DD, I have heard the subject of single sex spaces raised at branch level recently.

Well I wonder, now that the SNP has won, whether people will feel able to say what they think without worrying about appearing disloyal. I know several women who have been really worried about this, and some who are involved with the SNP at various levels who have felt simultaneously scared of the act and scared of saying so. Whether they will now be able to speak their minds or will feel more disinclined to do so remains to be seen. I don't envy them, tbh. It's bad enough being in the Labour Party, but I am only involved at local level and even then in a very limited capacity.

Crikey lady honoria could you be any more patronising. I and the other women involved in these discussions dont need press barons to tell us anything, we were involved in these issues long before the press became interested. The contempt shown for the public is always lovely to watch though.
I am currently aware of a number of wonen who have been assaulted within the prison service and of legal action being taken with regard to refuges to ensure they provide one, just one, single sex refuge in a geographical area. I am afraid your knowledge on the subject isnt as comprehensive as you seem to think.
As for move along, nothing to see, that's what they said about the tavistock, mermaids, puberty blockers, and oops that wasnt quite accurate was it?

Breakdown of who voted for and against the GRR Bill.

twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1605957583654645760?s=61&t=2LktGuHTzAxjXjX20XVlig

FarNorth

Wyllow3 I'm sorry to hear you are in such a difficult situation and completely understand if you don't have the brainspace to think about trans ideology.
That doesn't mean you should dismiss concerns as transphobia.

Please do start a thread about anything you would like to see discussed.

FarNorth, I've been active in these discussions for a very long time as its an issue we discuss many time over in L Party Meetings. And in the 1970's in Womens Liberation meetings since we were fairly inclusive of transwomen at conferences and in discussion groups. An activist for many years. Obviously I have contacts on "both sides of the debate"

My "brain space" as you put it, is very competent.

I think maybe you are being more than a little patronising to suit your POV, as in "oh the poor thing she cant think straight?"

Its possible for me to be involved in a most personal situation - police, arrests, getting help, as a result et al - and keep my intellectual powers.

If anything my experiences have strengthened my POV as to what the underlying troubles are, and they are, as I stated.

Aveline

If only it was that simple!

As you say yourself ...

Aveline

Says it all.

Truly, Aveline, no, it does not.

Wyllow3 I'm sorry to hear you are in such a difficult situation and completely understand if you don't have the brainspace to think about trans ideology.
That doesn't mean you should dismiss concerns as transphobia.

Please do start a thread about anything you would like to see discussed.

Victor Madrigal-Borloz was in the first part of the same meeting with MSPs.
I didn't find him convincing at all.

Thank you, LHD, largely I agree you have described the bill and its actual limited effect.

I'm fed up of transphobia around this very very limited bill.
As a feminist I dont consider it a threat. (and a feminist who is just getting out of an abusive marriage with a man, too, but blames the man, and current acceptance of what maleness allows in out society, rather than transwomen!

when I see people in thread after thread actually addressing the problems of abusive maes in our society and the "why's" of it and how we might change it,

I'll be a lot happier in gransnet instead of this endless obsession with a small minority, a few who of course utterly transgress and who are not excusable or forgivable.

why are we not discussing maleness and abuse instead? that's what matters to most women like me who have encountered abuse and trying to recover?

Yep, I'm off the fence.

Mainly because of sensible approaches like LadyHonoria's

Ms Alsalem; do you think she knows Victor Madrigal-Borloz?

Last time I introduced him to the debate it was implied that his view was of no importance because he is a man.

Slightly different, in that applicants for GRC will have to be ordinarily resident in Scotland, but same principle.

I don't know if any definition of 'ordinarily resident' has been given.
Would 3 or more years of living in Edinburgh while at university be acceptable, perhaps?

Mollygo I believe that is correct, if Westminster does nothing before it finally becomes law.

It would be similar to Gretna Green weddings which happened because of differing laws.
Once a couple had been married in Scotland, it had to be accepted in England .

www.gretnagreen.com/why-flee-to-gretna-green-a739

Another point put to Ms Alsalem was that, about 18 months ago, she signed a letter urging (iirc) Belgium to introduce self-id of sex.
She responded that, since that time, she has seen evidence from many sources which has convinced her that self-id of sex is not working well.
Ms Alsalem said that she would not, now, sign such a letter.

volver

Keep protesting. Keep making your points. Keep trying to get your points of view codified into law. That's what we do in this country.

Those who do not support this bill are obviously sincere in their worries about it. Mainly.

But when it doesn't happen the way you want it, be aware that it doesn't mean the world is out to get you, and the rest of us are "captured" or supporting the patriarchy. We just think you're wrong.

This rather sounds as though you are off the fence volver which, tbh, you have been sounding like for quite a while.

I hope that you and LHD are right and that no girls or women suffer because of this legislation.
Looking at how things have gone, so far, both here and in countries with self-id already, it doesn't seem too hopeful.

Reem Alsalem, UN rapporteur on VAWG, responded to MSPs who said there is no evidence of wrongdoing connected with self-id. She told them that there is evidence but it is not being properly collected or analysed.
Just as the Tavistock and Sandyford clinics have not been collecting long-term data on outcomes for the children and young people they have treated.
Just as my MSP discovered from the Scottish Prison Service that no separate data is kept of incidents involving transwomen in women's prisons. All incidents are recorded as involving females only.

And, if what I heard on the radio is correct, any of those who should have been excluded-rapists, sexual abusers of women, could bring the certificate to England and argue that it has to be accepted here.

Blatant misogyny, Stormystar? Patronising rhetoric?

Well I'm sorry I spoke to try to shed some light where there has only being heat. Pointing out the actual truth of what the GRR Act – almost certainly the most consulted-on, most heavily scrutinised legislation anywhere in the UK within my memory – actually does, and by extension what it doesn't do, is intended to make things clearer.

Bluff and bluster and sensationalist whatiffery doesn't trump proper argument but it makes proper debate too much like bloody hard work. Ok, you're right and a clear majority of the elected Scottish parliament are all stupid, if that's what you want to believe. I won't try to shed any more light.

QED.

Now you move along LHD jog on please, because there’s nothing to see here but your patronising rhetoric your blatant misogyny.

No it never happens Doodledog, we're simply hysterical purveyors of blatant disinformation. There's nothing to see here. We should just move on.