Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

Keep protesting. Keep making your points. Keep trying to get your points of view codified into law. That's what we do in this country.

Those who do not support this bill are obviously sincere in their worries about it. Mainly.

But when it doesn't happen the way you want it, be aware that it doesn't mean the world is out to get you, and the rest of us are "captured" or supporting the patriarchy. We just think you're wrong.

Aveline

If only it was that simple!

Indeed. And said with such confidence too.

This never happens, does it?

The second paragraph of your post LadyHonoria conveniently ignores the fact that if this Bill is passed, a man with previous convictions of sexual abuse against women, would be able to apply for, and receive a GRC.

It also ignores the fact that a man charged with a sexual assault could apply for, and receive a GRC before going to trial, therefore forcing his victim to refer to him as 'she'.

You may choose to move on and believe there's nothing to see here but those of us who have genuine concerns, for very real reasons, will not.

If only it was that simple!

Let's cut through some of the hysteria and the blatant disinformation, shall we? Always remember that some people, not wishing to name any media barons or newspaper editors here, have a vested interest in whipping up outrage over things that have little or no impact on the general public because it a) sells newspapers and therefore advertising, and b) distracts from their own devious behaviour.

The Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Act makes it easier to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) without a psychiatric diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. It also extends the application process to 16 and 17 year-olds.

That's it. Full stop. Period.

Anybody in has the right to live under any name they like provided that they do not do so for fraudulent purposes¹. Nothing will change there. What the GRC does is to make it easier to obtain a passport, driving licence or other legal document under the chosen identity, and to help resolve issues with private pensions and legacies.

A GRC does not grant magical powers. As far as I am aware there is no door that is forced to open on production of a GRC.

Nobody will be forced to allow anybody into any private space. You probably don't want that big bearded lump in your refuge for abused teenage girls whatever bit of paper is waved in your face. You don't want Rose West in there either and nobody doubted that she was a woman.

Nobody is going to be assigning sex offenders to a women's prison, not on the basis of a GRC anyway. Remember that, whatever you may have heard about one infamous case a few years ago that was clearly down to stupidity in the prison service.

Nobody is going to make anybody have sex with anybody they don't want to have sex with. Rape is still rape.

Basically, the GRC and the GRR (Scotland) Act makes life easier for a small minority of people who feel forced to conform to stereotypes they are not comfortable with. Now, move along please, nothing to see here. The world still revolves on its axis. For most people there will be no change.


¹ There is no criminal offence of fraud in Scotland, although cases are usually dealt with as Common Law fraud.

*Pam Duncan-Glancy MSP, I should have said.

Granny23

Having spent most of my working life as a Women's Aid worker it comes as no surprise that I have more concern for the Thousands - yes thousands,of women and girls who are subject to violence/rape/ murder each year by ordinary non trans, male persons. The court reports in my local paper every week record 3,4 or more of these cases, whereas, I have never seen a report of any crime committed by a trans person in a woman only space. I am not saying that has never happened but such cases are a drop in the ocean compared with the Male on Female crime statistics.

When I hear the hysteria around intact males being free to enter Women's toilets and changing rooms, I am reminded that in many European Countries such facilities are often unisex without any problems. With reference to prisons it is a fact that most violent or sexual attacks are perpetrated by males on males. A senior prison officer told me that most requests for transfer to a Women's prison are made by young males who have been assaulted in a Men's prison and who would feel safer in a Women's prison. The fault lies with an under funded/under staffed/over crowded Prison Service.

As to refuges, it is the case that WA have always had the right to refuse anyone deemed 'unsuitable for refuge' e.g. alcoholic, drug dependent, with male children over 16, or if the refuge is full. It is the Local Authority who MUST offer accommodation to anyone fleeing violence, usually in a homeless person's unit, often with continuing support from Women's Aid.

The root of the problem is male on female (and male) violence, not genuine Trans people.

Of course we are concerned about the women and girls who have suffered male violence Granny23 and we want them to have a male-free service to help them recover.
Yes, there have been assaults on women by transwomen in women's refuges. The easier it is for male people to identify as women, the more likely it becomes that ill-intentioned men will get access to refuges.
Even if a transwoman is completely genuine, unless he passes completely as if he is a woman, his presence could be distressing to women who had believed a refuge to be women only.
This applies whether the transwoman is a client or is on the staff.

You are telling us that young males ask to be moved to women's prisons to feel safer?
Do those young men get transferred without claiming to be transwomen?
If there is a problem in male prisons, which I'm sure there is, that doesn't mean that women have to sort it out.

Do you count Katie Dolatowski as one of those vulnerable young men?
Dolatowski has been convicted of sexually assaulting two young girls, in separate incidents.
He was not jailed and then used false ID to get into a Women's Aid hostel in Leeds.
He was then jailed in a men's prison where he battered another man because he was so upset about 'comments' and about not being in women's prison.
So now he is in a women's prison.

Of course most prison violence has been male on male, because the sexes have been housed separately until recently, and still mostly are.
Can't you see problems arising from the recent court ruling that a person with a GRC must be treated as their chosen sex at all times, swiftly followed by ScotGov saying they will give a GRC to anyone who asks?

Pam Duncan-Glancy was on the radio today talking about 'ribust safeguards built into the Bill'.
I'm not convinced about that but if anyone here knows better, please do point out those safeguards and how they will work.

I live in Scotland and I know there are plenty of people living in Scotland who do have concerns and who do hope Westminster can prevent out & out self-id for especially for sex offenders .

it seems to me that this is because you can’t believe that any sensible person would know what you know and think differently to you.

You haven't made clear what you do think, tho, volver.
Although you claim to be unbiased and undecided, you criticise those you call 'the GC' but not 'the trans'.

It certainly does. I think MSPs who voted for might be in for a shock at the next election. Women aren't happy!
(oops except volver of course.)

But it appears that those who do live in Scotland and have real concerns about this Bill are being ignored.

Yes indeed. Westminster does, at the moment.

But people who don't live in Scotland, and have no elected post in Westminster? Not so much.

Westminster clearly has some say which is why Scotland is unable at the present time to hold another independence referendum.

As far as that goes, I think Scotland should be able to do so but as far as this Bill's concerned, if it can be prevented I hope it is.

Well here's the thing.

You don't get a say how we run our country.

Have you let the Spanish know you don't think they should be allowed to do things either?

www.independent.co.uk/news/spain-ap-scottish-parliament-spanish-kemi-badenoch-b2250164.html

Well as far as this particular decision is concerned, I hope Scotland isn't allowed too.

Grantanow

A benefit of devolved government for Scotland?

That's OK. The big boys in WM haven't yet decided if we'll get to make our own decisions.

There's a little bit more to it than that Caleo!

A benefit of devolved government for Scotland?

Gender stereotypes are nothing but a nuisance. At one time women and girls were expected to be x,y, and z and men and boys otherwise . If a human being with a penis wants to be called 'she' and 'Carol' then why not ?

I am an old woman and if I want to be called Rory, which I'd rather like , why should not others call me by the name of my choice?

The GRR Bill has been passed with a majority of 47.

twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1605941951815098379?s=61&t=9bPfST2EBEIRc1E_G6aP6w

Galaxy

To be fair the liberal Democrats got themselves in a right mess over this at the last election, my strongest advice to any political party would be dont make this issue an issue! on either side of the debate, there hasnt been a political party so far that it has worked well for. They tend not to listen to me though

They are all hopeless. The Tories seem to be dealing with it best, but all of the others appear to be fighting shy of saying anything that might result in annoying the trans lobby.

volver I'm not clinging to a belief - it is just what I think. And it is not because you don't agree with me - there are others who don't agree either, and I don't think they are disagreeing for any reason other than that they think differently. I might change my position on what I think about you (not that it matters, except that you keep going on about a comment I made months ago) if you said what you do think rather than criticise everyone else for their views and ways of expressing them.

My views aren't OTT, in my opinion at least. I have no issues with trans people doing their thing. I believe that we only have one life and should live it as we choose, so long as it doesn't hurt other people or take away their rights. Where I take issue is with the imposition of an anti-feminist agenda onto women and girls. Transwomen (who are men, however they identify) insisting on being able to go anywhere women go is taking rights from us - the right to have women-only spaces. They are also denying women the right to fair competition in sport, to shortlists that attempt to fight discrimination and to the ability to use data that separates women from transwomen and men, in order to make fairer policies. The insistence that people declare pronouns and similar impositions in the workplace, and the adaption of the language in healthcare settings to remove 'mothers' and replace them with 'birth-givers' and so on forces that agenda onto everyone else, whether they like it or not.

They are my objections - not to how people live, and whether they see that is being 'like a woman'. That brings me to my final objection (unless I've forgotten one) which is that the very notion of so-called 'gender' is regressive. There is no such thing as 'living as a woman' (or a man), and the pretence that there is will undo the progress on women's rights that has been hard won over decades.

And I'm not shouting at anyone. I can't show it in a post, but I am perfectly calm.

I have just had a read of Alex Cole Hamilton on Twitter and what he seems to be saying about sex offenders being able to have a certificate to say they have changed their gender is that gender recognition is a human right and that convicted criminals retain their human rights.

That's all perfectly lucid.

Alex Cole Hamilton is the leader of the Lib Dems in Scotland. I suppose that's a reason to have "found him".

Obviously Winston is correct. Men who want to be women, I wonder how many have still have their male bits. Womb women and penis and testicals man. Of course many are drawn to their own sex and that their business.
Don't do Twitter or Facebook you get so many odd balls.. It might be useful to find a business recommendation, but I steer clear" never heard of Cole Hamilton but if he agrees with gender fluidity I doubt I would. I suppose you have to have a reason to find people like that in the first place.
Those who claim to be scientists and think you can change sex well that beggars belief.
I just hope those protesting are investigated to find out just where they are working. They are dangerous.

More grown up debate.

Yes, I know - I said the bit about you being a scientist, as I'm sure you remember. I do think your claims of neutrality were/are disingenuous, as you must be fully aware that changing sex is impossible.

No, I didn’t remember that it was you DoodleDog. However you are clinging to this idea that I am disingenuous, and it seems to me that this is because you can’t believe that any sensible person would know what you know and think differently to you.

I didn't, however, say you were probably a man. That sort of thing is not my style and not the way my mind works.
I am sure it wasn’t you DoodleDog I never said it was. But it was certainly somebody, because its not my style to make things up.

The dredging up of the Winston thing isn’t adding to debate at all. So you can’t change sex. Probably true, I’m not a medical scientist but is seems obvious. But, in my opinion, this is being used as a false premise. It’s a kind of “there you go, the clever people said so, so you don’t have an argument.” It’s using a scientific fact (which I believe) to say that it supports your idea that we shouldn’t move forward with this because a bearded bloke in a sparkly frock might want to give you a bed bath. (I haven’t made that up, I read it on Twitter yesterday.)

And as for JKR and her “destroyer of women’s rights” thing. You don’t think that might be just a little bit over the top? There’s no middle ground here, its just shouting at each other. We’ll get nowhere.

Perhaps we should listen to Granny23.