Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

I don't look at Instagram much gdh but I'll check out Mr Menno. Thanks.

FarNorth thanks for the post of Mr Menno, I enjoyed it, he’s always very easy to watch/listen. Do you follow him on Instagram? He posted a few days back, he had a cold and his voice was very different because of it, very funny.

The wonderful Elaine Miller explaining why she felt she had to protest in Holyrood.

twitter.com/gussiegrips/status/1606485612219236354?s=61&t=2mMKZLcjpllROudXZWoILw

The sex of a person relates to their penis/vagina/ breasts, pelvic dimensions etc. But their gender relates to behaviours.

There is no need for any child to be dissatisfied with their body because they want to behave in a way that is unconventional. No child needs to dislike their body for any reason other than pain or disability .

Here's a new video from Mr Menno in which he shows a lot of information, from trans people themselves, on what it means to be trans.

youtu.be/zrkOCiSotSA

It would be nice if we could hear two sides of the debate instead of the judgemental labels which are chucked around as soon as someone disagrees with them. I find that most depressing and yet another erosion of free speech which went out the window quite some time ago.

I hope no-one tells children they are puzzled and mistaken or that they might harm women.
GC people believe children should have counseling, which shouldn't tell them anything but should help them with their difficulties - which may stem from something other than gender dysphoria.

I don't remember anyone here denying that a child might have gender dysphoria. Some may do .
I don't believe that every child who is claimed to have dysphoria, or to just know they are the opposite sex, really does or is .

Self-identification of sex, as now being made law by ScotGov, is based on there being no need for a diagnosis of dysphoria in any case.
So what is likely to happen, is self-id by a child, social transition even when parents are unhappy about that - as you described happening at your niece's school Wyllow3 - followed by the young person being completely confirmed in the idea of being the opposite sex (which in Scotland can now be legally registered by 16.5 yrs) and seriously considering hormone treatment and/or surgery , both of which can be very damaging to their health.

Wyllow3

They are big issues for children and young people to consider.

When the Tavistock was closed the clear recommendations were for regional centres to be set up where support and genuine supportive-but-"questioning" counselling could take place.

This has not happened. A young scotswoman on the news last night had waited 4 years.

Locally, there is in the MH sector, where atm, these services are situated, 1.4 workers who have referrals for ALL sexual/relationship counselling.

I'd like to see far more calls for this kind of support instead of endless, "they are taking services away from natal women".

The closure of Tavistock and start up of regional centres is to happen in Spring 2023, no more precise date given I don't think .

Young people in Scotland are referred to the Sandyford clinic in Glasgow, not the Tavistock.
So far, ScotGov is insisting that there will be no change with the Sandyford.

Ellie Gomersall, theyoung person who was interviewed, is 23 so was 19 or maybe 18 at the start of the wait - too old for the Sandyford or Tavistock.

Posters on most of the trans threads on GN have said exactly that - that children should have holistic counseling rather than it being immediately accepted that their distress means they should be on a trans pathway.

As you also mentioned women's services - they are being affected by the inclusion of men, who may or may not be genuine transwomen. They are always male in any case.
We are not going to pretend that isn't happening.

Doodledog I never subscribed, I worked shifts (no two weeks the same) for 27+years and quite often just didn’t have time to read a paper. I still read Grace Dent and Jay Raynor’s restaurant reviews and food articles but that’s it.

A explanation of why Elaine did what she did in Holyrood.
twitter.com/nic_jameson/status/1606027126167437312?s=61&t=5zwBFE__UhtOfXJUtJmHHQ

I love this.
twitter.com/slipkn0t8/status/1606191754079744001?s=61&t=O3geJRsAvX0qH2BtOOr4DA

Today for the first time since I joined Twitter, I’ve used the block facility. I had tweeted on several threads last night, and my goodness found out that yes, you do get followed from thread to thread if you happen to annoy the trans activists enough.
According to them, I’m transphobic, homophobic, racist, fascist, dim as f.ck, thick as f.ck, a c.nt, a b..tard, a right-wing Christian fundamentalist, a Nazi, a pervert, a paedophile, I support genocide of the most marginalised group ever and possibly the most insulting of all a Tory 😁 and all because I support women’s rights and the safeguarding of children.

It's depressing, isn't it?

I was a subscriber to their online version for ages, but cancelled a year or so ago because of this. I don't want to see the rest of their News get lost, but I can't pay to support censorship. similarly, my Amazon Smile donations went to Stonewall at one time, but I switched to something else for the same reasons.

I appreciate that there are different perspectives on this, but it is very rare that anyone from the trans agenda side of the fence answers questions or even attempts to join in a debate - instead there is censorship from those with the power to use it, and ridicule, accusations and dismissive behaviour from those who don't.

A thread about the Guardian deleting comments from people who were raising coherent, reasonable points about what was happening in Holyrood yesterday. I was a reader for years, it’s very sad that excellent writers like Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman had to leave, and censorship has taken a strong hold.

twitter.com/orlando__gloom/status/1606280311989338112?s=61&t=7rnQW_F0CximUKT2E2p1Dg

I don't want or expect you to change your minds. As I said, stick to your guns. Also as I said before, we just don't all agree with you.
I have no guns to stick to - I would be interested in a debate if anyone explained why they think as they do rather than simply being dismissive, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

I agree with you galaxy. I may as well get that tattooed on my arse

I don't want or expect you to change your minds. As I said, stick to your guns. Also as I said before, we just don't all agree with you.
Perfectly put and even better, it applies whichever belief you support.

I think it's a very complex issue growstuff, I find the comorbidities of concern, children with autism appear to be over represented so to speak, and there is some information on girls who have experienced abuse, (of course these young people would want to escape puberty), looking at those issues is very important. The chances of that happening in the current political climate are low as that's expensive work.
I have spent over 30 years working with children with autism, I cant tell you how many times we get it wrong, honestly time and time again.

Tedious. Definitely.

Ask for examples, you're going to get examples. (*FarNorth*, 9:48 this morning) So don't then complain about examples just being "anecdotes".

And to be clear, in case it needs saying; I have never accused anyone of being homophobic or racist. I have drawn parallels between the way language was used about different races in the past, and how assumptions were made about them that have parallels in the trans debate. As for homophobia, I've never gone near that description, and nor would I.

I don't want or expect you to change your minds. As I said, stick to your guns. Also as I said before, we just don't all agree with you.

grannydarkhair

Doodledog Is it not obvious? You’re non-binary! And your husband must be as well, from what you say about him. Congratulations to you both! 😂

Isn't everyone these days? Since the days when Janet and John lived with Mummy and Daddy, Mummy stayed at home, and Mrs Scrubbit helped her in the house with Janet chipping in at times, and Daddy went to work, whilst Sam helped him in the garden and John watched admiringly as Daddy did manly things like sawing logs. Mummy always wore a smart skirt and blouse, Mrs Scrubbit a pinny, Janet a dress, John long shorts and socks, Daddy a suit and tie, and Sam overalls. Everything was ordained by your age, sex and class in that world, which seems to be the one to which Some People would like to return, except with more glitter and lots of shouting. That was breaking down significantly until recently, when 'identification' came in. I wonder - if I decided to identify as rich, would that mean I would be allowed into first class waiting rooms and VIP areas?

I expect he'll just get over it.
Maybe. Or he could 'sharpen his pencil' and explain what his experience has been*, which will, of course risk having his views dismissed with a swipe, as ours have been. What is it about your newly acquired views that makes them so right that you can just write off those who don't agree with you? (newsflash - not everyone is going to do so)

*Obviously there is no obligation for anyone to explain their lives, but as I keep saying, there are constant demands for fact-based feminists to explain their thought processes and to defend themselves against entirely unfounded (not to say cliched and tedious) allegations of racism and homophobia, with nothing coming back in the other direction, even out of courtesy.

Just magnanimously granting permission for us to 'argue all we like' - not about the meaning of words, but about the basis of a new law - is not remotely the same as engaging in a discussion and giving an alternative point of view. What was your feeling about your friend's situation whilst you were still on the fence? Presumably there was some opinion on the matter then that at least mitigated what you now feel since the act went through?

The fact-based arguments are many and varied, and are repeated on here over and over - to the point where they are getting tedious to write. In reply, if we get one at all, is 'just because', anecdotes about individuals, whose experience are, to goes without saying, valid, but are not necessarily representative of anything else, or arrogant dismissal. Is it any wonder none of us seems likely to change our minds?

Galaxy

Sorry Volver I keep forgetting science and independent reviews of services are now bad things.
I dont need to stick to my guns,
I dont decide on the current guidelines for young people with gender dysphoria.

Sorry to blow my own trumpet.

But you know you've jumped the shark when you accuse me of being unscientific. 🤣 🦈

My view is that we are charging ahead with a simplistic solution ( just change your gender) to what is a complex package of issues that arise from believing/feeling that your body is at variance with your mental state.

All sorts of things can create that dissonance. Pressure from others, a need to escape from abuse, society’s expectations, early trauma, a natural phenomenon, the list can go on.

I can’t agree with the pressure and expectations that transition is the automatic way forward for all those people. Especially I don’t agree that it is the way forward for children whose understanding of the world is often confused in regard to all sorts of things. Birth, death, gender, how our bodies work in general.

Anyone who has spent large amounts of time with young children has enjoyed listening to their ‘logical” thinking on a whole range of subjects and enjoyed the sensible but not sensible conclusions they reach.

But anyone who has spent time knows how very, very anxious they are for approval from the adults around them and how very, very easy it is for adults to manipulate them into saying or doing anything they want, consciously or unconsciously.

If it hasn't already been said, I think the late, great George Orwell wrote something long the lines that some ideas are so preposterous that only an intellectual could believe them. I wonder what his thoughts would be on this.

Galaxy

so you did,

but if there is not the support, for those who need it,
we are left with hundreds of struggling youngsters and a debate which can only give rise to fears and "oppositional" thinking. As in the message

"oh you are just puzzled and mistaken and likely to harm women by just wanting to be yourself"

despite so many transwomen just wanting to live an ordinary life like the rest of us.

The public narratives are now round the "extremes" and are frequently transphobic. I do NOT "hear" transphobia from everyone here of course but to deny that a child might genuinely have body dysphoria and go on to live a good life in the gender they feel they belong to IS transphobic.

And what kind of treatment would you want?

Galaxy

Yes I do, there are numerous forms of body dysmorphia. I want the treatment if gender dysphoria to be evidence based or there is a risk we look back in horror at the treatment we offered.

What kind of evidence would you want to see? (Genuine question)

Crikey of not if.