Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

Er what happened at the tavistock happened because of the whistleblowers and partly because of GC feminists raising concerns. It has been GC feminists who have stood in support of the detransitioners. I think many if us have worked very hard Wyllow.

They are big issues for children and young people to consider.

When the Tavistock was closed the clear recommendations were for regional centres to be set up where support and genuine supportive-but-"questioning" counselling could take place.

This has not happened. A young scotswoman on the news last night had waited 4 years.

Locally, there is in the MH sector, where atm, these services are situated, 1.4 workers who have referrals for ALL sexual/relationship counselling.

I'd like to see far more calls for this kind of support instead of endless, "they are taking services away from natal women".

Yes I do, there are numerous forms of body dysmorphia. I want the treatment if gender dysphoria to be evidence based or there is a risk we look back in horror at the treatment we offered.

I accept that some young people could have had pressure to conform to a stereotype (not just in gender-related matters, by the way), so hopefully you accept that some children genuinely believe they have a physical body they don't feel is right for them.

Yes I know growstuff, I just dont think its particularly helpful on either 'side' of the debate. And I too have produced individual examples. Children and young people need evidence based treatment, they deserve that much.

Sorry Volver I keep forgetting science and independent reviews of services are now bad things.
I dont need to stick to my guns,
I dont decide on the current guidelines for young people with gender dysphoria.

Galaxy

Individual examples arent particularly helpful either way, one of the failings with regard to the tavistock was lack of long term follow up, this is something which appears to be a familiar theme in this issue and is of great concern. It appears, again it is difficult because of lack of follow up, that the suicide rate does not decrease following surgical intervention, these are very serious concerns, and we cant just pretend that everything is ok.

But FarNorth asked for individual examples. I happen to know of two.

Individual examples arent particularly helpful either way, one of the failings with regard to the tavistock was lack of long term follow up, this is something which appears to be a familiar theme in this issue and is of great concern. It appears, again it is difficult because of lack of follow up, that the suicide rate does not decrease following surgical intervention, these are very serious concerns, and we cant just pretend that everything is ok.

A very thorough report. Pop off now and enjoy your lunch.

Cheers. Lunch time. So, my parting shot.

You seem to think that every child who has decided they are "in the wrong body" (as we used to say) has been subject to adult pressure to be that way, although I accept that you may think the "pressure " was not intentional.

Three people have told you otherwise. But stick to your guns, if you want to. After all, you have a Report.

You can pop off and do what you like. It wont make the cass report not exist. I will pop off and tell those who are detransitioning that it wasnt a mistake after all.

FarNorth

'adults' behaviour towards them' means adults trying to insist on stereotypical behaviour & clothes & toys.
Can you confirm that the people you know of, in history and now, have been completely free of that?

Mollygo what do you mean by 'acquired a child'? Are you in a nursery, or school?
Are you saying the parents want the child to be encouraged to be 'boyish' now that he's 'decided'?

Yes, as far as I could for any child. The parents of one of the children are reasonably good friends. They are the last people in the world to have ever insisted on stereotypical clothes and toys. I can't speak for other parents, but you asked for single examples.

Galaxy

I am afraid that really isnt the position now Volver, the cass report is clear about that. Although I am not sure 'get over it' was ever seen as guidance for a very complex issue.

I'll just pop off then and tell my young acquaintance that the adults made him the way he is, and he's been misled all these 20 years or so.

I expect he'll just get over it.

I am afraid that really isnt the position now Volver, the cass report is clear about that. Although I am not sure 'get over it' was ever seen as guidance for a very complex issue.

grannydarkhair

Elaine Miller did not “expose” herself, it was a merkin sewn on to a pair of tights. Now someone who did recently “expose” himself was TIM Jordan Gray on a C4 show. He stripped totally naked, pranced about and then proceeded to “play” a piano with his ever so paltry penis. And guess what, he got lots of praise and adulation for his performance. “Described as being “stunning and brave”. Double standards! Never!

I know right again misogyny in action

'adults' behaviour towards them' means adults trying to insist on stereotypical behaviour & clothes & toys.
Can you confirm that the people you know of, in history and now, have been completely free of that?

Mollygo what do you mean by 'acquired a child'? Are you in a nursery, or school?
Are you saying the parents want the child to be encouraged to be 'boyish' now that he's 'decided'?

I was determined to stay off this thread today, but here I am. So sharpen your pencils, chaps.

Every account I've seen, of 'trans children ', is based on stereotypes and adults' preconceived ideas.

I only know one trans person, (as far as I know) born a girl, became a boy.

Now you can all argue all you like about the meaning of words like "live like a Male" or whatever, but this person knew from childhood that they had been born with a physical manifestation that did not suit them, and what they knew they were inside. I have no idea if they are fully transitioned, because what they have in their underwear is none of my business.

Putting words in people's mouths, which we can usually spot by a sentence starting "Are you saying that..." then followed by a complete non-sequitur, is partially why it is impossible to debate with people with entrenched ideas.

To coin a phrase... "Some people are born needing to be trans. Get over it."

There are currently 30 000 people on the detransitioners support forum, impossible I agree to verify what this means, but maybe an indicator that a pause for thought might be worthwhile, those young people are not ok or do they not count?

Are you saying the detransitioners and whistleblowers are lying? They are speaking very clearly about the fact that homophobia in some cases was a reason for transition, this is particularly true in young girls transitioning.

Sorry but the phrases living like a Male and act like a Male are stereotypes that I thought had disappeared years ago.
The Cass report is saying that there is not enough evidence to say social affirmation is not harmless so I am wondering what guidance the school you mentioned is following.

I agree with Wyllow. Each of my children had friends who were born male, but became female. I know that one is now fully transitioned. I'm not sure what you FarNorth mean by "adult's behaviour towards them". Both have siblings who are happy to live with the gender they were assigned at birth. Their parents were, I think, surprised, but have been accepting. My children were completely accepting that their friends identified as a different gender - it really wasn't any big deal.

About 25 years ago, I taught a girl who started identifying as male when in mid teens. During puberty, she developed broad shoulders and narrow hips naturally and, with hindsight, it was obvious that there had been gender dysphoria issues. She was referred for counselling and once discussion started, it was evident that her self-confidence grew. I heard that she started living as a male after she left school. I don't believe there was any pressure to adopt any particular identity. Again, younger people didn't appear to have issues.

Yes, Farnorth, I do.

Its well documented going back centuries there are those who feel this way from very early on before puberty. I know one such who is a Quaker in my MfW.

I have also spoken in depth to my niece who is a headteacher in a very large comprehensive in the SW of England and she has come across a few in her working life. One in particular at the moment, who has known since age 6/7 that tho born as a girl has always felt she was really a boy. Parents not happy with it, but he is well adjusted and dresses and acts as "boy" at school, he is 14 now. Teachers on parents evenings use the birth given female name to parents but the child's chosen name to the teenager in school.

What interests me is that it's not this "huge issue" with the other children: he is confident and well liked. Her impression is that young people are far. far, less concerned about gender fluidity than us older ones. The school approaches these matters with acceptance/non biased counselling where there is distress but as regards information the young people are far, far more informed than most older people and less afraid of change.

Farnorth instead of accepting that gender dysphoria is a small part of part of the human condition, you seem to search for parental or psychological reasons.

Blame somebody? There "has" to be a "reason" as its "unnatural"

What worries me is your POV is very dangerously close to the old attitude to gay people - that there is something "Wrong" or "unnatural" going on and they should undertake conversion therapy. "Therapy" these young people out of something that is natural to them? Very punitive.

FarNorth
No, I don't accept that.

Every account I've seen, of 'trans children ', is based on stereotypes and adults' preconceived ideas.
👏👏👏
Right back to The Who song, where a boy tries to convince his mother that he isn’t a girl!
We have just acquired a child raised as ‘gender neutral’ until he was nearly four. His parents expressed concern about him being allowed free choice of play activities now he has “settled on being a boy”.
If they hadn’t mentioned it, we’d never have known, so who was the ‘gender neutral’ status for?

then they break and lash out in some random odd manner in completely the wrong direction.

So why did we seea deluge of praise for his 'ground breaking' 'refreshing' performance?

As far as I know most people on this thread accept that there are a small number of people who have always. -from early childhood - identified as a boy tho born as girl and vice versa.

No, I don't accept that.

Every account I've seen, of 'trans children ', is based on stereotypes and adults' preconceived ideas.

Even when we're told the child said something like "God made a mistake" or "Mummy, I'm a girl" it's easy to see why they would think that, based on adults' behaviour to them.

Does anyone know of any instance where that isn't the case?