Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

What safe and benign paths can we create for the transchildren to grow up without hatred and fear? To be accepted for the person they are, just as we'd wish for all our children? Children must be free to dress how they like, play with whatever toys they want, follow whatever interests them, without it leading to assumptions about their future. There are enough gay adults who say that had they been children now they would almost certainly been assigned as trans, especially very feminine boys. A child who still believes in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy is hardly capable of the complex knowledge about sex and genders to make that decision. I'm wary of lots of affirmation of a child's transgender status simply because it could lock them into a pathway they'd have left without adult enthusiasm. As Galaxy says follow current NHS guidelines.

That what you wear, the activities you do, etc have no impact on your sex.
The advice now for children is watchful waiting and generally those issues resolve. So I would follow current NHS guidelines.

Allsorts Having known Jordan Gray in the past I would say mentally ill. A person can only take so much abuse and discrimination and then they break and lash out in some random odd manner in completely the wrong direction. He had reached his breaking point and unfortunately that was his lashing out.

Let me turn the question on its head.

Let's take the area where we are most likely to agree. As far as I know most people on this thread accept that there are a small number of people who have always. -from early childhood - identified as a boy tho born as girl and vice versa.

Just as a number of children know they are attracted to same-sex partners and grow up as gay.

What safe and benign paths can we create for the transchildren to grow up without hatred and fear? To be accepted for the person they are, just as we'd wish for all our children?

Doodledog Is it not obvious? You’re non-binary! And your husband must be as well, from what you say about him. Congratulations to you both! 😂

Tim Jordon Gray, should never work again, his perverted behaviour is not acceptable, he is either mentally ill , or just a nasty piece of work, I suspect the later. As for that awful excuse for a man who groomed a vulnerable disabled girl, have him castrated, he won't do it again. . Some of the people seem to think such depraved behaviour acceptable and really are not worth engaging with, as I've said they have their own agender and it's not for the benefit of women and the vulnerable. Is this SNP ?

volver

I don't expect women to wheest. Just don't expect everybody to agree with you.

I don't. And if you can show me where I have implied that I do I would be interested to see it.

If people would talk to me about the issues instead of making nasty digs and pointless comments based on nothing, I would be happy to discuss. But that's not what happens, is it?

As I said upthread, I would very much like to know how this is going to work in practice. What is meant by 'living as a woman'? And who will judge whether the 'womanly' standard has been achieved? Will it be as regressive as many women fear, or have the parameters of what it means to 'live as a woman' been redrawn? Oh, and what about actual women who don't live up to them? Will there be consequences?

It would be great if someone who is pleased about the result would explain, as I am very unclear. I know I am a woman - I have had pregnancies and borne children, I had periods and then a menopause, I grew breasts, I have female genitals.

But I wear trousers sometimes and dresses at others. Docs sometimes and heels at others. My hair is sometimes short and sometimes long. I either do or don't wear make up. Even my name is unisex. I share household chores with my husband, and have shared childcare. I worked and earned my living. I don't drink now, but did when I was younger, and sometimes drank pints and sometimes Babycham.

Am I sometimes a woman, but not at others? And who is going to tell me which I am at any given time? If I commit a crime wearing docs and short hair, might I be sent to a male prison?

Elaine Miller did not “expose” herself, it was a merkin sewn on to a pair of tights. Now someone who did recently “expose” himself was TIM Jordan Gray on a C4 show. He stripped totally naked, pranced about and then proceeded to “play” a piano with his ever so paltry penis. And guess what, he got lots of praise and adulation for his performance. “Described as being “stunning and brave”. Double standards! Never!

Also, she didn't expose herself.
She was in costume, making a legitimate protest.

FarNorth

^Now they’ve helped to get the Bill passed, maybe the Scottish Greens might return to being a party who campaigns on environmental issues. But they’ve lost my vote, almost certainly for ever.^

Not with the current leadership, it won't.

Maggie Chapman is obsessed with Gender Recognition for nonbinary people and for children younger than 16.

Yes, no doubt that’s what they’ll start pushing for now. Sigh!

volver

You should tell that to the protestor who complains about how people will use the new bill to corrupt women and children then exposes herself in the Scottish Parliament.

I don't think 'corrupt women and children' is her objection.
It's the decision to hand GRCs to everyone who wants one, specifically making sure to include sex offenders.
What with that being straight on the heels of the court ruling that a person with a GRC is their chosen sex at all times.
Plus ScotGov insisting that the Equality Act single-sex exceptions can still be used but refusing to create guidance on how they can be used, thus ensuring that service providers will play it safe by not using them.

Was just about to post that @ThePosieParker (Kellie-Jay Keen) was back on Twitter.

grannydarkhair

One “good news” item I’ve just seen - @Glinner (Graham Linehan) is back on Twitter ❤️

And Posie Parker.

Now they’ve helped to get the Bill passed, maybe the Scottish Greens might return to being a party who campaigns on environmental issues. But they’ve lost my vote, almost certainly for ever.

Not with the current leadership, it won't.

Maggie Chapman is obsessed with Gender Recognition for nonbinary people and for children younger than 16.

I just came across one of those instances of nothing to see , in one of those places following best international practice and having no problems :

"United States — Olympia, Washington. A level 1 sex offender convicted of the rape of a 12-year-old girl was transferred to a women’s prison, where he groomed and raped a woman who is developmentally disabled and a survivor of sexual abuse"

www.womenarehuman.com/male-rapist-of-12-year-old-girl-groomed-vulnerable-woman-while-in-womens-prison/

Volver completely unable to provide another definition of "jumpers" in relation to bridge closures can keep posting while never disclosing her particular definition, but blaming everybody else. Quite a talent!!

volver

Perfectly rational post.

Why, thank you. I appreciate your appreciation. 😘

Volver couldn't be bothered to explain beyond her patronising correction.... fewer is the correct usage when the number can be counted, less is for larger amounts where the number cannot be counted. Waitrose have always had their tills marked '8 items or fewer' (this number be incorrect, it's been a while since I've been in Waitrose) whilst more common supermarkets like Tesco, Asda etc usually have tills marked '8 items or less'.

Perfectly rational post.

volver

Rosie51

Volver Eh? Was that last post addressed to me? Sorry I don't follow. If you ever give your alternative definition of "jumpers" (which you steadfastly refused!) or acknowledge it was a regrettable post (as many, many others have done in different circumstances) then I'll let it go. While you try to occupy the high moral ground while never giving your alternative definition of jumpers in the bridge closure situation I shall hold you to account. Not a grudge, just fair play as you often claim in your posts.

Drop it lassie. It's not good for your health.

(Sorry, that was probably patronising 😂)

Actually, you don't have to let anything go. Entirely up to you what you want to post about. Just like I can continue to call it a grudge.

Call it what you like. I can't be the only one who sees you used the term "jumpers" in a frivolous, uncaring way, and then attempted to deflect saying it didn't mean suicidal people, but has never, ever been able to say what you meant by the term. If you had an alternative definition you'd have shared it. Call it a "grudge" if it feeds your inflated ego, I call it telling the truth. You keep on with your correcting people on the use of less and fewer if it also feeds your inflated ego

Rosie51

Volver Eh? Was that last post addressed to me? Sorry I don't follow. If you ever give your alternative definition of "jumpers" (which you steadfastly refused!) or acknowledge it was a regrettable post (as many, many others have done in different circumstances) then I'll let it go. While you try to occupy the high moral ground while never giving your alternative definition of jumpers in the bridge closure situation I shall hold you to account. Not a grudge, just fair play as you often claim in your posts.

Drop it lassie. It's not good for your health.

(Sorry, that was probably patronising 😂)

Actually, you don't have to let anything go. Entirely up to you what you want to post about. Just like I can continue to call it a grudge.

Galaxy They were maybe in the viewing gallery at Holyrood, a wee pre-Christmas trip? 😁

One “good news” item I’ve just seen - @Glinner (Graham Linehan) is back on Twitter ❤️

Volver Eh? Was that last post addressed to me? Sorry I don't follow. If you ever give your alternative definition of "jumpers" (which you steadfastly refused!) or acknowledge it was a regrettable post (as many, many others have done in different circumstances) then I'll let it go. While you try to occupy the high moral ground while never giving your alternative definition of jumpers in the bridge closure situation I shall hold you to account. Not a grudge, just fair play as you often claim in your posts.

You should tell that to the protestor who complains about how people will use the new bill to corrupt women and children then exposes herself in the Scottish Parliament.