Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

It really does feel like we’re characters in a dystopian novel, doesn’t it?

Smileless2012

Thanks for sharing that FarNorth, a well written and powerful piece which although know every word to be true, is still virtually impossible to believe.

Some years into the future nobody will believe how all this came about, it’s so bizarre.Without politicians enabling it tho, it couldn’t happen, so we know who to blame.

Smileless2012

Oh sorry Doodledog; my thanks to you.

No need to apologise, or for thanks - thank Sally Wainwright 😀.

I’m pleased it resonated with people and that it shows the lunacy of the accusations of homophobia that are so often directed at fact-based feminists. And it’s not just lesbians who are affected. Gaslighting people into having to accept that men who say they are women are women will leave us with nowhere to call our own. Already, ‘women only’ is meaningless if it includes anyone who says they are a woman. And this in the name of ‘equality’?

Oh sorry Doodledog; my thanks to you.

Some, tho, will say, as that's all happening already, the GRR Bill will make no difference.
What's the answer to that?

My answer would be that the Gender Recognition Act should be repealed and the idea that people have a gender identity that is to be treated as if it is their sex should be abandoned.

Whether people want to conform to stereotypes or not should be irrelevant.
All should be honest about what sex they are, wherever it's relevant & important.

(That seems unlikely to happen as the supposedly progressive youth become ever more judgemental and restrictive.)

That is a really well written statement. No fancy words or high brow philosophies, just clear and easy for anyone to understand. How anyone could argue against what she says is beyond my ken. Thanks Doodledog.

Ridiculous that you can’t have women only groups or men’s. These stupid protestors will not rest until everyone has no gender and blow the science. You have to wonder at their agenda.

It was Doodledog who shared it, I hadn't seen it before.
Thank you Doodledog

Thanks for sharing that FarNorth, a well written and powerful piece which although know every word to be true, is still virtually impossible to believe.

That is a powerful statement of the current situation, from Sally Wainwright.

Sorry - when I edited the above post I deleted the first sentence that had mentioned the fact that the post is about a Times article. I hope it still makes sense.

Whether you are gay or straight, the principle remains - women are being prevented from meeting in single-sex groups, such as the WI, the Inner Wheel, or the walking group in the article. Whether you want to belong to a single-sex group or not, why would you deny that right to others, particularly when, as in the case in the article, allowing men in would render the group pointless and it would fold? There are parents who keep their daughters out of the Guides, as they no longer have single-sex camps. Soon there will be nothing left for women, who already have more limited social opportunities for men. Competitive sport has been colonised, too.

I can well see that a 'genuine' (sorry, I can think of no better term) transwoman may want to join the WI or similar, and is as likely to be a valuable member as a female one, and I wouldn't want to deny them that chance. This is yet another example of how TRAs are making the lives of transpeople more difficult as well as those of women.

This article is from yesterday's Times. I have cut and pasted it as it is behind a paywall. The last paragraph summarises the dilemma faced by many women who support Scottish Independence but are also feminist and/or lesbian, and the whole article shows how frustrating it is when fallacious parallels are drawn between fact-based feminism and homophobia:

Gender reform bill has betrayed lesbians — and will send them back into the closet
Sally Wainwright

Thursday January 19 2023, 4.20pm, The Times

As a lesbian in Scotland, I have deep concerns about how the Gender Recognition Reform Bill will affect my personal, social and cultural life. I choose to spend much of my free time in the company of lesbians and other women. This is essential for my personal happiness and wellbeing. I find women-only gatherings a world apart from mixed ones, gaining support as well as friendship.

The atmosphere, our shared experiences and understanding and much more, are unique — not only in the privacy of our own homes, but also in our social and cultural activities, even walking groups, that are open to all lesbian women. For us, the bill will not only affect our safety, dignity and fairness. Those, yes. But frighteningly also our freedom of association, fundamental day-to-day existence and our right to live as we choose.

In 1988 the Thatcher government introduced Section 28, prohibiting local authorities from “promoting” homosexuality. In response, a friend and I founded the Deckchairs Collective, which organised annual lesbian gatherings. The point was to assert our right to exist and to ensure lesbians were not afraid to be “out” in the aftermath of that appalling homophobic legislation.

I was unprepared for the fear lesbians experienced. One woman rang to say she and her partner were teachers but hid their relationship from everyone for fear of the consequences of being discovered. She was too frightened to tell me even her first name or the town where they lived, but phoned just for the opportunity to speak to another lesbian. We are now seeing the same fear and isolation again, this time as a result of gender identity ideology.

With the reversal of Section 28, changes in public attitudes, eventually the introduction of gay marriage, I thought lesbians would finally be able to live free from prejudice, and certainly without state interference. For a few years that was more or less true — homophobia persisted of course, but we were able to organise lesbian discos, bookshops, nights out, walking groups. Naively, I thought that we had achieved an unchallengeable right to live publicly as lesbians. How wrong I was.

No sooner were we visible than men claiming to be “women” started demanding entry to our events. When I first encountered men claiming to be “lesbians” (in the United States in 1980) I thought it was an aberration. Again, how wrong I was. Today, it is the official policy of the Scottish government, which prioritises subjective declarations of “gender identity” over biological sex.

Over the years the demands of gender identity ideologues grew increasingly forceful and influential. For some years now, lesbian groups have been forced to organise and meet in secret, taking care how we advertise our activities or invite new members. Almost all our social spaces and meetings closed. Women self-excluded from previously safe lesbian spaces and events which had, de facto, become mixed. Lesbians are banned from Pride marches, while lesbian banners are carried by males in bulging silver shorts.

Since 2016, the Audacious Women Festival has empowered women — lesbian and heterosexual — to overcome the disadvantages we suffer because of being conceived female. Events range from personal empowerment to taster sessions in sports where women are underrepresented. Crucially they are single-sex, free of male energy, physical superiority or sense of entitlement. This provides a supportive, non-judgmental space where women feel secure expressing themselves and experimenting without fear of male criticism. It ensures events are open to all women, regardless of race, religion, disability, trauma or experience of male violence. The Gender Recognition Reform Bill — now being challenged by the Westminster government — will make such events impossible.

We have been betrayed by ideologically captured groups and individuals who should have spoken for us. Scottish politicians too have mainly closed their eyes, ears and minds to what is happening; blinded by the inexplicably attractive ideology of “gender identity” and deafened by the shrill shrieks of outraged male entitlement. Politicians who simply don’t care about women, especially lesbians, at all.

The legal move to accept not only males with severe gender dysphoria but also sexual offenders, autogynephiles or just regular blokes as “women” is being driven by politicians who refuse to acknowledge women’s concerns. Politicians who celebrate the frighteningly large increase in the number of young lesbians presenting as “trans”, rather than paying heed to the Cass Review, safeguarding, or the clear element of social contagion. Politicians who do not wonder where the lesbian adolescents went. (A teenager told me few girls in her year admit to being straight, and none to being lesbian; they are all “trans”, “non-binary” or have some other “special identity”).

Politicians in short, who are happy to pander to homophobia. Better a trans-son than a lesbian daughter. Lesbians’ only protection in this toxic atmosphere is the UK-wide Equality Act, which allows all males to be excluded in certain circumstances. But in December the Court of Session ruled that men with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) are legally “women” for virtually all purposes.

By extension, heterosexual men with a GRC must, absurdly, be “lesbians”. The few exceptions will not cover associations such as my walking group. The Scottish government’s determination to hand out GRCs like sweeties will deny lesbians a distinctive social or cultural existence. This new legislation will drive us back into the closet.

A court in Tasmania recently prohibited lesbian events which exclude biological males claiming to be “women”, ruling them “discriminatory”. That is where Scotland is headed. This is both outrageous and terrifying. Once we are forced to include people outwith our legally protected group, all protections become meaningless.

Those who want mixed spaces are welcome to have them. But equally those of us who want to meet, socialise and interact only with other lesbians must be allowed to do so. As an indy supporter I find it ironic that we are now dependent on the Conservative UK government to enforce the Equality Act, to protect the rights of Scottish lesbians to live free from state or male coercion, and to let lesbians party.

(Sally Wainwright is an activist and author)

Transwoman Debbie Hayton commends this speech by Helen Joyce at the Scottish Parliament in October 2022. (3 mins)

youtu.be/vmFr71msWYI

Debbie Hayton’s thoughts on GRCs, the GRR Bill and the section 35 order.

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1615305246305132544?s=61&t=TdZY9U6bN-5v3P7akp2Gew

Yes I am naughty sometimes.

And I apologised and said I shouldn't have done it. But still you decide to bring it up.

Bowing out now.

I was being a little sarcastic because you might have posted the odd photo of a swastika to prove a point.

Yes we do, we certainly do. Has anyone told the person who brought him up at the rally because she thought it made her point stronger?

Yes we need to be careful throwing Hitler around in discussions.

Aye OK. Whatever.

We'll just live with people trying to quote Hitler and getting it completely wrong and thinking that supports their POV.

The main point - that's it's a Big Lie that people can change sex and men can be women - was perfectly clear.

So your attempt to highlight an unimportant mistake seems rather pointless.

I was trying to imply that people who make speeches can be a bit thick. 🤷🏼 That they can quote Hitler because they think that is a rational thing to do when they don't understand what it really means. That the thing they are quoting is means exactly the opposite of what they think it means.

And yet she persisted.

A bit thick - shock, horror!
Not quite as shock, horror as whatever you were trying to imply by posting the video.

FarNorth

volver

The tactic of telling big lies wasn't originated by Hitler, it was a piece of anti-Jewish propaganda that he initiated and used to justify his actions.

Bit of history education needed here, maybe.

(It's analogous to that thing they say about car crashes here. I can't look away.)

Sorry, I don't claim to know the details about Hitler and a big lie.
I just inferred from what the woman said and from the fact that Hitler did use a big lie to justify persecution of Jewish people.

She would have been better not to mention Hitler but did anyone genuinely think she meant something horrifying by what she said?

I actually think she must be a bit thick to decide to quote Hitler in a speech and not bother to understand what she is quoting before she says it.

It's not simply because the UK government doesn't like the Bill, as anyone knows if they've been paying attention indeed FarNorth and thank goodness it appears that the UK government has been.