The Tories are in sight of their goal aren’t they?

NotOld, please can you also explain why you talk of demand for mental health support rather than need? If an intentional choice of words that is offensive.

Similarly, an unwillingness for families to look after their elderly is not a recognisable state of affairs, in fact I would say quite untrue.

ExperiencedNotOld Look no further than the Health and Social Care Act 2012 for evidence of political meddling. It opened up the NHS to so-called competition and services being contracted to the cheapest provider, which were often in the private sector and couldn't deliver what they promised for the price.

I don't understand what you mean by "not expect to be served". We pay our taxes and are entitled to healthcare.

Your last sentence seems to suggest that we, as citizens, should allow those in government to do what they want, even if it's not in the best interests of the majority. Do you not believe in democratic accountability?

-We cannot go back to the old ways. We need to five a better way of dealing with health care and do that as a wider population, not expect to be served. I don’t have the answers but perhaps we should let those that do get on with the job, whilst exercising a high level of personal responsibility at the same time.-

Quite so, Not old, my question is who and where are the people who do know the answers and why aren't they telling us what the answers are? At the moment the tablecloth seems to be being invisibly dragged off the table taking everything with it and the govt isn't putting out a hand to stop it..

Tory bashing? Who has undermined and attempted to privatise the NHS, mostly by the back door, for the past decade and a half?

Reform is one thing- destruction to privatise to gain hugely, and often even personally, is another.

I must say that the (usually Tory) bashing that starts many such conversations irksome. Whilst on first glance it appears the current government had done little, they did get us through a pandemic (hold the brickbats please). The NHS problem started way back and Labour have made done so silly things as well.
As another poster states above, similar chaos is being experienced on the continent. There are a whole raft of issues that go back many years affecting the wider NHS picture - everything from no more Nurses homes to more varied and complex procedures, the demand for mental health support, an unwillingness for families to look after their elderly, a growing and aging population and so on.
I’d agree that political meddling shouldn’t govern the NHS - but has it really done so so far? Where’s the evidence for that?
We cannot go back to the old ways. We need to five a better way of dealing with health care and do that as a wider population, not expect to be served.
I don’t have the answers but perhaps we should let those that do get on with the job, whilst exercising a high level of personal responsibility at the same time.

Agree with whoever said that the system is about to implode, and fear that the present govt feels powerless to do anything about it despite the cause being the years of austerity under the posterity of their predecessors.
The tsunami of need seems too great for even 10-yr-plans.

ronib

Iam64 a young and very bright engineering graduate explained to me that even with a masters in engineering, graduates were at the start of the career path. Companies spent a lot of time and resources on training to get graduates work ready in complex engineering roles. So good salaries immediately on graduation plus ongoing training offer young graduates an excellent career path.

A retired hospital consultant explained that because of the sheer complexity of human ailments, young medical graduates needed full exposure to as many health conditions as possible as part of ongoing training.

Which is why medical degrees require a proportion of the time to be spent in hospitals doing clinical practice.
Unfortunately most engineering degrees don't do this (partly because we no longer have the manufacturing base to accommodate them). There used to be qualifications which involved engineering students doing periods of practical work as well as studying. There were even companies who paid for students. These have largely disappeared. There are some courses which offer a year in industry, but they are few in number and highly sought after.
Arguably we could do with more teaching hospitals as well to increase training facilities. But on ward training is part of a medical degree. Engineering degrees have no such requirement.

I have just seen this- John Bird (RIP) and John Fortune discussing the NHS and computerisation. It is brilliant! www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd7ziJsnnvo

Iam64 a young and very bright engineering graduate explained to me that even with a masters in engineering, graduates were at the start of the career path. Companies spent a lot of time and resources on training to get graduates work ready in complex engineering roles. So good salaries immediately on graduation plus ongoing training offer young graduates an excellent career path.

A retired hospital consultant explained that because of the sheer complexity of human ailments, young medical graduates needed full exposure to as many health conditions as possible as part of ongoing training.

It’s not difficult to understand why the nhs, like every other public service is stretched beyond its capabilities.
Austerity - deliberate running down of funding, deliberate running down if the numbers employed.
Take away decent terms and conditions, charge people small fortunes to train so j r docs and nurses stsrt work with thousands of pounds of debts, wreck the pension schemes etc and then blame staff strikes for putting the public at risk

ronib

I wish that the Nhs could become independent of political interference and to stand apart from all political weaponising and deweaponising. The top managers are in place to run this service so why not let them?

It is because they hold the purse strings.

What is needed is an independent trust and an agreed level of funding over which the government of the day has no control - get rid of the ideological element.

I wish that the Nhs could become independent of political interference and to stand apart from all political weaponising and deweaponising. The top managers are in place to run this service so why not let them?

People have said on here that the NHS is the only system free at the point of use, but that is also true of Spain is it not? The Spanish system is funded by the equivalent of NI insurance contributions. I am sure it varies, but my family in an ordinary Spanish town in the interior seem to get good provision.

You’ll end up the same as us which is a cross between the USA and the UK. It is not cheap. For dire emergencies the public system works well but it has to be pretty dire before you jump the queues. An uninsured friend was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and had to wait several months before his op. Now if that’s not an emergency, what is ? He survived but he is very,very lucky. They are good with heart attacks, strokes etc but not so good with hip replacements, knee replacements etc- you are better going private for that.

Dentists, here in Scotland anyway, are already 2 tier.
Only basic treatment is on NHS. White fillings, better dentures, crowns, hygienists do not come as standard so are not covered by NHS.
Implants cost £3000 per tooth.

I have recently discovered that an acquaintance with good looking teeth (in her 80s), took out equity release on her house to pay.

Rich people have had medical insurance for as long as I can remember. I used to think these people were a minority but it seems to be creeping in now for procedures such as hip replacements, cataract operations etc.

I'm not saying it is right but it is a fact.
Are the young doctors really all going to Australia? I find that hard to believe.

Lord save us from an American style health care model - or lack of care if you're poor.

One reads or hears occasional near horror stories regarding people being rushed to hospital in the USA and having their health insurance status checked before treatment is allowed to commence.

Or not if you can't afford the premiums.

Siope

Although I totally agree about the Tories and the NHS, that artwork is not a Banksy. It’s by Iranian artist Bozorgmehr Hoseinpour, and can be seen in one of his tweets from 2020

twitter.com/bozorgmehr_h/status/1329503936924016646?s=46&t=9VwI7ojgO9tLn_IoY2UKsw

Thank you.

I copied it from a social media site.

However it is well worth being up there as it’s powerful message chimes with everyone desperate to hold onto our NHS.

Although I totally agree about the Tories and the NHS, that artwork is not a Banksy. It’s by Iranian artist Bozorgmehr Hoseinpour, and can be seen in one of his tweets from 2020

twitter.com/bozorgmehr_h/status/1329503936924016646?s=46&t=9VwI7ojgO9tLn_IoY2UKsw

Deedaa

Possibly we should look at the way countries like France work. My friend who has lived in France for about 30 years has always had very good treatment, including two knee replacements and a very complicated rebuilding of a shattered ankle. I've never gone into the finances with him but he doesn't seem to have problems with the cost of treatment or insurance.
And the hospital food is a lot better.

I agree with everything that you say apart from the food. During my stay in hospital the food was dreadful. One meal comprised a large plate, more than half covered with boiled broccoli plus a defrosted and heated omelette. Not what I wanted to eat after a major op. Perhaps your friend was in a private hospital - according to some of my friends the food is better in the private hospitals.

My DH has been saying for years that the Tories are trying to get rid of the NHS, but I wouldn't believe him. I do now though. It's in a pitiful state and this bloody government does nothing to help. It's just not fit for purpose anymore. I listened to a junior doctor on Jeremy Vine on Wednesday and he said that they start off on a mere £14 an hour! That is just preposterous and such an insult after all those years of training. They often have as much as £20,000 worth of debt too and have to pay for further exams to progress up the ladder. The amount of hours worked per week can be as much as 72. This is just not right and lots of them are leaving to work in Australia where the salary is four times higher. I can only see this all imploding before much longer.

Deedaa

Possibly we should look at the way countries like France work. My friend who has lived in France for about 30 years has always had very good treatment, including two knee replacements and a very complicated rebuilding of a shattered ankle. I've never gone into the finances with him but he doesn't seem to have problems with the cost of treatment or insurance.
And the hospital food is a lot better.

The French pay more as a proportion of GDP for healthcare. It's simple really - pay more - get more.

Possibly we should look at the way countries like France work. My friend who has lived in France for about 30 years has always had very good treatment, including two knee replacements and a very complicated rebuilding of a shattered ankle. I've never gone into the finances with him but he doesn't seem to have problems with the cost of treatment or insurance.
And the hospital food is a lot better.

Whitewavemark2

There will be no reaction from the sleeping public until they are presented with the cost of the insurance, by which time it will be too late.

What "reaction" do you suggest would help Whitewave? Those on Gransnet have achieved nothing, as far as I can see, so why blame others for being in the same position?

A percentage will positively want a society formed by far-right views; they will not work to save the NHS. Posters on GN get angry and shout at one another, or they get depressed and drift away. No one, even the people telling others how to think and that they "should be doing something", ever suggests anything positive. Even if they did, how many could or would do anything?

I hope that behind the scenes, the opposition is busy with this and other "too difficult" subjects. Hopefully, they will already have brought together people, as they did with Brown's team on democracy and are busy working out how to have an even better, well-funded NHS. This is our best and only hope if we want a form of publicly funded health care systems, free at the point of need for all.

It is (dreadfully) worth remembering that we did the most in these areas when we had the least - after the war.

I can't say I feel confident about this, but Starmer does seem to be a man who likes a plan. They will need a plan that enables them to hit the ground running. As far as I can see, that is the only hope of turning this around.

Mamissimo

I think it needs to be reworked as a truly National health service with no more local variations so that health discrimination can end. When it was set up there were few drugs and a lot less people.

Social care should be part of it......for everyone......

And we all need to wake up and pay far, far more national insurance to pay for it. As a nation we need to pay enough to balance the books to provide the services we need now and will want in the future.

There is no cheap solution!

In 1948, there were far fewer older people with relatively high needs.

There were also far more deaths from infectious diseases. Infant mortality was 34.5 per 1000 live births in 1948 (it's 3.8 now). There were 23.2 still births per 1000 (4.4 now). People spent much longer in hospital for minor ops.

The NHS has lower levels of staffing and fewer scanners then 18 similar countries.

The NHS needs to be funded properly to deliver a 21st century healthcare system. What difference would insurance schemes make?

Oreo Would you refuse to prescribe expensive drugs for conditions such as cancer and some other relatively common conditions? Maybe a cap on drugs of (say) £100 a month? Or limiting treatment for terminal conditions? I wouldn't mind betting a few on GN would die quite soon. How about refusing to deliver very premature babies? Many of them spend weeks in expensive units and have a higher risk of disability. Are their lives really worth saving?

I don't accept it's too late to save the NHS in its current form. It's been a deliberate policy decision to run it down.