Keir Starmer, yearly review

My issue with Starmer rests on two main areas.

Firstly I am unhappy about his stance with regard to our relationship with Europe. I think it has become almost indisputable that Brexit has failed, and I can’t understand how ignoring this fact helps the U.K.

Secondly Starmer appears to have accepted the Tory line that we can’t spend our way out of a recession.
I believe that what we need is growth, and growth from investment. Growth provides the government with greater revenue which will in turn be used to cover the debt incurred by greater expenditure.

These are the two main areas over which I find I am at odds with Starmer.

I haven’t time to go into greater detail, but I think this explains how I feel.

There are areas with which I am in total tune with Starmer though, but the economy tops everything imo, because by suppressing growth through a form of austerity like we have experienced over the past decade, shows that nothing can be done without revenue.

MaizieD

DaisyAnne

Whitewavemark2

MaizieD

I've lost any enthusiasm I might have had for him initially and just hope he's playing a clever game for the right wing media; because some of the rather dogmatic things he's said, like ruling out the single market, and now all the rubbish about the 'government chequebook'.

But I shall have to vote Labour at the next GE because the tories are infinitely worse and they have to go.

I just hope that Starmer in office with a decent majority turns out to be more radical and adventurous than he appears to be now.

My thoughts exactly.

But that is because you are both far left and now is not the time for him to appeal to you. He has a tough job appealing to those from the centre who might vote for him and those who voted for a Conservative Brexit.

My worry will be that he actually goes more in your preferred direction. Yours will be that he goes more in mine. His will be that he appeals to all three of us.

I wish you would drop this 'far left' thin, DaisyAnne. It's getting really, really annoying. You don't actually have a clue about my political affiliations, so stop it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wwmk2 doesn't feel the same.

I would be surprised if she didn't agree with you too.

However, your views are extremely to the left of mine and I am not right-wing so calling them far-left seems to put them where they are. Are you embarrassed by the views you hold? If not why create when people see them for what they are?

Glorianny

I tried listening but the sound went half way through- apparently there were gremlins!!!
What I heard sounded so general and non-specific I hope he became more detailed.
I did think about what won Blair a victory. He made 10 pledges.

Labour's Key Pledges:
EDUCATION : Summer schools for poor readers phase out pounds 100 million assisted places scheme and use money to cut primary class sizes to below 30 for 5 to 7-year-olds no return to 11-plus further drive to connect schools and colleges to information superhighway at no cost every child to have access to computer and high quality educational material.
EUROPE: Complete integration of 1992 single market blueprint by mid-1998, opening up telecommunications, energy and financial service markets to British firms
EMPLOYMENT: Welfare-to-work programme for 250,000 young people, funded by windfall tax
CRIME: Ban on private ownership and possession of handguns

CONSTITUTION: Devolution for Wales, Scotland and London directly-elected authority for London abolition of hereditary votes in Lords

LOTTERY: Divert 20 per cent of funds for good causes to education , enviroment and public health improvements
SLEAZE: Ask Nolan committee to investigate political funding and legislate to identify party political donations

Glorianny it's worth remembering that no one has called an election. There will be a lot more in the run up to one.

DaisyAnne

MaizieD

DaisyAnne

Whitewavemark2

MaizieD

I've lost any enthusiasm I might have had for him initially and just hope he's playing a clever game for the right wing media; because some of the rather dogmatic things he's said, like ruling out the single market, and now all the rubbish about the 'government chequebook'.

But I shall have to vote Labour at the next GE because the tories are infinitely worse and they have to go.

I just hope that Starmer in office with a decent majority turns out to be more radical and adventurous than he appears to be now.

My thoughts exactly.

But that is because you are both far left and now is not the time for him to appeal to you. He has a tough job appealing to those from the centre who might vote for him and those who voted for a Conservative Brexit.

My worry will be that he actually goes more in your preferred direction. Yours will be that he goes more in mine. His will be that he appeals to all three of us.

I wish you would drop this 'far left' thin, DaisyAnne. It's getting really, really annoying. You don't actually have a clue about my political affiliations, so stop it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wwmk2 doesn't feel the same.

I would be surprised if she didn't agree with you too.

However, your views are extremely to the left of mine and I am not right-wing so calling them far-left seems to put them where they are. Are you embarrassed by the views you hold? If not why create when people see them for what they are?

It is not up to you to define other people. I often get the feeling from your comments that you are far right- despite what you say.

You have to be joking or you have never read my posts.

I wasn't defining people only their politics and they are defined by others than me.

There you go, nonsense.

Much as she doesn't need my input I have to disagree with the idea that MaizieD is far left. From where I sit she's left leaning (as am I) but not extreme. IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years.

Unfortunately there will still be lies peddled about previous Labour govts, such as Brown ruined the economy, which he didn't. Even George Osborne admits that and also now agrees that Brown did a lot to stop world financial chaos.

Dinahmo

Much as she doesn't need my input I have to disagree with the idea that MaizieD is far left. From where I sit she's left leaning (as am I) but not extreme. IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years.

Unfortunately there will still be lies peddled about previous Labour govts, such as Brown ruined the economy, which he didn't. Even George Osborne admits that and also now agrees that Brown did a lot to stop world financial chaos.

Agree. I am exactly the same.

I don’t think every political party always fulfils every individual’s political wishes. And one should not support them without a critical approach.

Are you embarrassed by the views you hold? If not why create when people see them for what they are?

I am not in the slightest bit embarrassed by my views. I am annoyed by your inability to discuss any topic without defining people by your criteria, which we know nothing about. It's not just me, you do it to others as well.

Perhaps you'd like to define what you mean by 'far left' and 'communist' so that we all know what ideas we are dealing with.

Whitewavemark2

Dinahmo

Much as she doesn't need my input I have to disagree with the idea that MaizieD is far left. From where I sit she's left leaning (as am I) but not extreme. IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years.

Unfortunately there will still be lies peddled about previous Labour govts, such as Brown ruined the economy, which he didn't. Even George Osborne admits that and also now agrees that Brown did a lot to stop world financial chaos.

Agree. I am exactly the same.

I don’t think every political party always fulfils every individual’s political wishes. And one should not support them without a critical approach.

Thank you, ladies.

MaizieD

^Are you embarrassed by the views you hold? If not why create when people see them for what they are?^

I am not in the slightest bit embarrassed by my views. I am annoyed by your inability to discuss any topic without defining people by your criteria, which we know nothing about. It's not just me, you do it to others as well.

Perhaps you'd like to define what you mean by 'far left' and 'communist' so that we all know what ideas we are dealing with.

Hear hear.

I will of course,at the next election vote Liberal Democrat.

We had a good LIbDem MP for eighteen years, have had a LIbDem District Council for more than 35 years and the newly formed Somerset Unitary Auithority is under Liberal Democrat control.

Our MP was, back in April last year , splashed all over the Sunday papers, accused of sexual harassment by three different women (lurid details available in The Sunday Times), also nepotism and corruption involving a dodgy Russian deemed unfit to be involved in financial services. and taking class A drugs (cocaine).

There were messages on his phone saying "does your dealer do Westminster Bridge?" and commenting on £160 being a good price for his drugs.

So David Warburton was sanctioned by the Conservative party by having the whip removed but still collects his pay and we have not been able to have a by-election in Somerton and Frome.

In this p[art of Somerset there are only two parties - the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives and so I will, when I get the opportunity, vote LibDem.

Having said that, although I have many criticisms of Starmer, I would vote Labour if I lived in a constituency where the Labour candidate was the best challenger to a Tory.

Dinahmo

Much as she doesn't need my input I have to disagree with the idea that MaizieD is far left. From where I sit she's left leaning (as am I) but not extreme. IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years.

Unfortunately there will still be lies peddled about previous Labour govts, such as Brown ruined the economy, which he didn't. Even George Osborne admits that and also now agrees that Brown did a lot to stop world financial chaos.

You may be right Dinahmo. Thank you for putting forward points for discussion.

I'm fairly sure that IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years. isn't a fact though. It is just you, quite rightly, declaring your personal bias.

We know both Maizie and Whitewave don't think Starmer, a confessed socialist and leader of the Labour Party, which describes itself as 'democratic socialist', has gone far enough. Therefore they must be further to the left than he sounds at the moment.

Then there is the backing for the state to be the only one to provide education, banning all others from doing so. This step would create a Nationalised Education system. The first intention of nationalisation is to dispossess others of capital. Indeed, many, declaring this to be the only way to improve state education, said this is their reason for this nationalisation. In fact, the vast majority of these establishments run as "not for profit". We may not like the extremes of capital, but we are a capitalist country. A second intention of nationalism is to redirect the profits to the public purse. This was also one of the arguments put forward for doing it although no facts were put forward to substantiate its possibility. That seems to have been a strident left-wing argument, but I am always open to facts that show it to be only "left-leaning".

And then there is MMT. I don't think that came from the right. Jeremy Corbyn was in favour of it, I believe. Are you saying he is only "left-leaning"? So, where would you put those sample views on the political spectrum? Why would someone be upset because others have the measure of their politics backed by what they have declared as their view?

Dinahmo

Much as she doesn't need my input I have to disagree with the idea that MaizieD is far left. From where I sit she's left leaning (as am I) but not extreme. IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years.

Unfortunately there will still be lies peddled about previous Labour govts, such as Brown ruined the economy, which he didn't. Even George Osborne admits that and also now agrees that Brown did a lot to stop world financial chaos.

Well some people think Sunak is a socialist.

Perceptions vary - obviously.

It would appear that if you hold the view that public services need to be properly funded in order to provide the service to the public that they were set up to do - you are far-left.

Which will come as a surprise to my NDN who is a traditional Conservative voter and also holds this view!

I will vote Lib Dem too. And for many reasons. First because they are the only ones committed to Electoral Reforms and to rejoining the Single Market, and hopefully the EU.

But also because the totally undemocratic FPTP, there is NO chance Labour will ever get in where I vote, but there is a very good chance Lib Dems will. 3 excellent reasons.

Starmer just wants to charge Vat on private schools because they are businesses like any other business.

Glorianny

I tried listening but the sound went half way through- apparently there were gremlins!!!
What I heard sounded so general and non-specific I hope he became more detailed.
I did think about what won Blair a victory. He made 10 pledges.

Labour's Key Pledges:
EDUCATION : Summer schools for poor readers phase out pounds 100 million assisted places scheme and use money to cut primary class sizes to below 30 for 5 to 7-year-olds no return to 11-plus further drive to connect schools and colleges to information superhighway at no cost every child to have access to computer and high quality educational material.
EUROPE: Complete integration of 1992 single market blueprint by mid-1998, opening up telecommunications, energy and financial service markets to British firms
EMPLOYMENT: Welfare-to-work programme for 250,000 young people, funded by windfall tax
CRIME: Ban on private ownership and possession of handguns

CONSTITUTION: Devolution for Wales, Scotland and London directly-elected authority for London abolition of hereditary votes in Lords

LOTTERY: Divert 20 per cent of funds for good causes to education , enviroment and public health improvements
SLEAZE: Ask Nolan committee to investigate political funding and legislate to identify party political donations

Can anyone explain the phase out £100 million assisted places scheme in Education section? Tony Blair phased this out over 29 years ago.
No mention of increased funding for state school places to keep pace with inflation? I think figure should be approximately £8k a year per pupil but around £5.4K and £5.6k for 6th form according to the Guardian.

20 years ago

Dickens

Dinahmo

Much as she doesn't need my input I have to disagree with the idea that MaizieD is far left. From where I sit she's left leaning (as am I) but not extreme. IMO most sensible, caring people should be thinking about voting Labour in the next election after the mess that the Tories have made of the economy and social services over the last 12 or so years.

Unfortunately there will still be lies peddled about previous Labour govts, such as Brown ruined the economy, which he didn't. Even George Osborne admits that and also now agrees that Brown did a lot to stop world financial chaos.

Well some people think Sunak is a socialist.

Perceptions vary - obviously.

It would appear that if you hold the view that public services need to be properly funded in order to provide the service to the public that they were set up to do - you are far-left.

Which will come as a surprise to my NDN who is a traditional Conservative voter and also holds this view!

It's not like you to twist what was said Dickens. Shame on you.

I believe that public services need to be properly funded, but get attacked all the time because I neither believe in nationalisation nor do I think it would help. Some people should be reading The Water Babies and remembering Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby.

ronib That list was what Blair promised.

DaisyAnne Why don't you think nationalised public services would help?

Which will come as a surprise to my NDN who is a traditional Conservative voter and also holds this view!

This quite an elderly survey, Dickens, but not an uncommon phenomenon. I think we've seen some of it in tory supporters on Gnet.

I remember seeing a clip of people being interviewed who supported similar things but on being told that they were from a Labour manifesto said that they would never vote Labour.

I think that the tories currently in government tend to be much further to the right than are their voters.

There is clearly a disconnect which can be attributed to more than just approval of a party's policies.

growstuff

ronib That list was what Blair promised.

I misread ….

growstuff

DaisyAnne Why don't you think nationalised public services would help?

This will be a bit of a repeat for some growstuff. My apologies for that.

Long before Starmer and Brown brought out the recent paper, I was talking about communities. I think they are good models of how society can work well. My experience of privatised and nationalised monopolies is that they are poor models. They are behemoths that no worker feels they belong to, and no one using them feels they have any control over.

We have tried both. Nationalise industries are generally too strong for the governments in charge of them and governments are usually pretty bad at running them. Private monopolies are also too strong; governments tend to be no better at running them. Government are pretty bad at running most things, especially those at a distance from them by miles and a distance from them by culture.

Community control doesn't stop the overall exchange of goods or ideas nationally. However, it gives more say over what suits a particular area and can be run by people close enough to be accountable.

Just my point of view though and I am still working through it. Others have different views. That's fine as long as none of us insist only we have the right ones. Democracy tells us eventually what the majority want. It's not a perfect system but I can't think of anything better.