NHS England

Surely we all know that hospitals and care homes use agency staff and that it’s very costly to do so. The agencies are not siphoning money from the NHS. It’s either agency staff or no staff - which would you prefer?

And they are not ‘privatised NHS agencies’.

This is relevant

www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/14/ministers-refuse-fund-medical-school-uk-doctor-shortage?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Before anyone goes ‘oh, the Guardian, wokery nonsense’, it was reported locally last week but with less of a national overview

www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/23233210.nhs-crisis-will-go-no-trainee-doctors-says-worcester-university/

This crisis won't be helped by merely doling out more money to Drs and nurses. I want to hear how many more training places are being provided so that in four to six years we just might have enough staff. Until then?

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

I despair of trying to make up the numbers of nurses we need. There's bound to be a time lag as they train.

GrannyGravy13

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

Sorry that was for Agency Nurses

Aveline

This crisis won't be helped by merely doling out more money to Drs and nurses. I want to hear how many more training places are being provided so that in four to six years we just might have enough staff. Until then?

I want to hear how many more training places are being provided so that in four to six years we just might have enough staff

Yes.

And without underpaid staff coming out of training with huge debts to pay off.

There’s a crisis in public services as a result of Conservative policies over 11 years. The government has been fuelling the. Public-private dispute, talking about gold plated pensions and conditions of service to make it appear public servants are somehow over indulged. It’s no surprise that refusing wages, wrecking pension agreements has police/teachers/social workers/paramedics and ‘junior’ doctors leaving to work for agencies or in the private sector. Private sector wages are higher than those in the public sector.

It’s too easy to say the nhs would be ok if managers/pen pushers were reduced. It’s that approach that means I hold on for 40 mins to speak to an assistant at the DWP, bring back ‘pen pushers’

Agency staff don’t have the benefits permanent staff do but they earn more and can pick and choose the work they do.

We need to show we value public servants, rather than speak if them in a derogatory manner, spit on them, assault them and more

I do remember the nurse at a clinic I attended telling me he was going to be on holiday for the next two weeks. When I asked if he was going anywhere, he said "back in here with the agency, covering my own job".

GrannyGravy13

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

It's not just in England, Scotland has a huge recruitment problem too, as has Wales

These firms are often based in tax havens too.

GrannyGravy13

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

Your right Granny Gravy. When I taught most of the mums who were nurses were agency, so they could choose their hours and holidays. I've been retired for a long time.

Yammy

GrannyGravy13

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

Your right Granny Gravy. When I taught most of the mums who were nurses were agency, so they could choose their hours and holidays. I've been retired for a long time.

Use of agency staff is a more recent phenomenon than you’d expect in the NHS in fact. There were medical agencies, primarily used for locums to cover long term sickness, but it’s only in the last 30 years or so that agencies have sprung up for other professions. I worked in a large teaching hospital in the nineties where the Chief Exec banned all non medical agency staff being employed, we had relief staff employed by the hospital who filled the gaps. It worked well - it wouldn’t now, because there aren’t enough staff.

Casdon

Yammy

GrannyGravy13

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

Your right Granny Gravy. When I taught most of the mums who were nurses were agency, so they could choose their hours and holidays. I've been retired for a long time.

Use of agency staff is a more recent phenomenon than you’d expect in the NHS in fact. There were medical agencies, primarily used for locums to cover long term sickness, but it’s only in the last 30 years or so that agencies have sprung up for other professions. I worked in a large teaching hospital in the nineties where the Chief Exec banned all non medical agency staff being employed, we had relief staff employed by the hospital who filled the gaps. It worked well - it wouldn’t now, because there aren’t enough staff.

I was a clerical temp in a hospital 40 years ago.

That hospital would not have continued without the use of temps (including medical) then and it definitely wouldn’t now.

Should there not be a staff agency within the NHS which could pay temps and locums just as well as the private agencies but cost less because there would be no profit syphoned off??

varian

Should there not be a staff agency within the NHS which could pay temps and locums just as well as the private agencies but cost less because there would be no profit syphoned off??

There are staff banks in nearly all hospitals, but not the people to work for them. The staff bank pays at the Agenda for Change pay rate though, not anywhere near the same rate as people get working for agencies.

GrannyGravy13

Casdon

Yammy

GrannyGravy13

The NHS has always used Agency Staff whether they be nurses, doctors, clerical or cleaners.

NHS Scotland’s bill was £92 million last year for nurses alone Paddyann54

Your right Granny Gravy. When I taught most of the mums who were nurses were agency, so they could choose their hours and holidays. I've been retired for a long time.

Use of agency staff is a more recent phenomenon than you’d expect in the NHS in fact. There were medical agencies, primarily used for locums to cover long term sickness, but it’s only in the last 30 years or so that agencies have sprung up for other professions. I worked in a large teaching hospital in the nineties where the Chief Exec banned all non medical agency staff being employed, we had relief staff employed by the hospital who filled the gaps. It worked well - it wouldn’t now, because there aren’t enough staff.

I was a clerical temp in a hospital 40 years ago.

That hospital would not have continued without the use of temps (including medical) then and it definitely wouldn’t now.

Are you in the south east or London by any chance GrannyGravy, as the use of non medical agency staff started there, because the NHS didn’t pay enough to be attractive to permanent staff compared with private industry? I worked in a very large teaching hospital in the midlands in the eighties, and we didn’t have them there, the NHS still attracted permanent staff then (and we had a nurse training school, medical school etc. in the city).

varian

Should there not be a staff agency within the NHS which could pay temps and locums just as well as the private agencies but cost less because there would be no profit syphoned off??

Well, that's such a good idea, varian but far too simple!!

You need to suggest it to the Government!!

I missed Casdon's post.

Is it being over-simplistic to say if NHS pay and conditions were better, and paid bank nurses well too, agencies would have a greatly reduced role?

My daughter's friend has left nursing - to work for a gardening firm. She had such a dreadful time working ridiculous hours in an ICU during the worst of the pandemic, it broke her.

'Holding their hands as they died, with an overwhelming sense of utter despair, then going home shattered but still unable to sleep' was how she described it. Who would want that job?

I don't think the BBC documentary, filmed by staff of a Welsh ICU during the first outbreak of Covid, is still available, which is a pity.

Hetty58

My daughter's friend has left nursing - to work for a gardening firm. She had such a dreadful time working ridiculous hours in an ICU during the worst of the pandemic, it broke her.

'Holding their hands as they died, with an overwhelming sense of utter despair, then going home shattered but still unable to sleep' was how she described it. Who would want that job?

Heart breaking to read and as we know, not an isolated case.

We need to accept many teachers, social workers and nurses for example work for agencies because it gives flexibility and autonomy. Improve working conditions, give staff flexible hours like they get in agencies and many will take up permanent jobs

Casdon yes I am in the South East

Callistemon21

Aveline

This crisis won't be helped by merely doling out more money to Drs and nurses. I want to hear how many more training places are being provided so that in four to six years we just might have enough staff. Until then?

I want to hear how many more training places are being provided so that in four to six years we just might have enough staff

Yes.

And without underpaid staff coming out of training with huge debts to pay off.

Didn’t the government reduce the number of training places for doctors recently?