About a third of the money going into the NHS pays for privately placed doctors and nurses and the use of private care*. Now the far right of the Tory party is just trying to persuade us that we no longer afford our health care to be "free at the point of need". We still live in a country that is one of the richest in the world. Of course, we can afford it.
We can discuss the systems used in Europe. However, it is the one they use in America that this government wants. Can anyone on this forum say they can afford that? Do these people care about you? These Trumped-up-Conservatives are not the Conservatives of the past. They do not believe in investing their money and working hard to build businesses. Those who did this in the past provided jobs for their communities and were often held in high esteem.
This lot believes only in profit and in that profit going into their pockets and the pockets of their mates, even if it takes fraud to do it. They go into companies, knowing nothing about how they work and invest none of their own money - but they can read a balance sheet. They know what to strip out - often jobs - to give them personally the greatest profit before they go on to the next job. Never mind if they destroy the business in the process. They will be long gone by the time that happens.
"Find the profit in the Health Service" is the game now. This is accompanied by a scarcity of tax paying by high "earners" so that there can be no fight back to keep a health service "free at the point of need" for all.
*Happy to see figures that show this is either too low or too high and estimate.
PFIs brought privatisation into the NHS and costs many many more billions to pay back
Jeremy Corbyn said this was a bad idea for the NHS and he was right.
UK: Starmer pledges Labour’s support for NHS privatisation
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/01/22/jsic-j22.html?fbclid=IwAR1RDObDOuuHocNrNK8ymWNiK4hFwvmGLm31HjBUH561cUjOkfmYcRHgHpk
We had private health care when working but as soon as DH retired his premiums shot up by....wait for it.....500%!!! Yep so guess what? We cancelled it. We now have a semi private insurance at very little cost that speeds up diagnostics and things like physio , with major stuff only being private if NHS waiting is much longer, it's always been NHS for my ops. Three major surgeries since 2006, half and half is ok but only for those able to afford. Nobody should be able to opt out of NHS, and if they want to have private then it's their choice, their money.
Callistemon21
Casdon
Zoejory
Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.
Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"
www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politicsIt’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.
PFIs have cost the NHS more in the long run.
John Major introduced them but Tony Blair expanded them.
Of course, there are no PFIs in Wales but Wales is no better than England for healthcare.
There are still PFIs in Wales Callistemon21, but a diminishing number, some of the PFI contracts have very long terms.
PFIs do cost the NHS more in the long term, and they can outlive their usefulness as health needs change over time. PFI was unchartered waters for the NHS when it started, and I’m sure many lessons have been learned in the interim.
This isn’t about healthcare being no better in Wales than the rest of the UK though, it’s about a different ideological approach to how services should be set up and run.
Zoejory
Casdon
Zoejory
Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.
Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"
www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politicsIt’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.
It is important to understand context. So what was going on in 1974?
navigator.health.org.uk/theme/labour-attempts-abolish-private-provision-nhs
Has the NHS ever been free of financial problems?
Sky News headlines this morning. This explains better what I was trying to say.
news.sky.com/story/nhs-crisis-charging-patients-who-can-afford-it-or-free-for-all-future-of-health-service-sparks-fierce-debate-12795631
We’ve moved on since 1974, having worked in the service for over 40 years I know very well about the conflicts which have always existed about private medicine co-existing, but the principle of free at the point of care is still the overriding Labour plan.
Lots of private companies operate within the nhs - services are put out to tender and the private companies bid for them, they employ their own staff as part of the service level agreement, they pay their own staff costs - saves the nhs a fortune.
I don’t think so,* Boing* The NHS TRAINED these clinicians in the first place and will step in if anything goes wrong, pushing poorer people out of the way. (Cheque-book medicine doesn’t cover emergency care). Anyone who has jumped the queue by ‘going private’ is responsible for the demise of the NHS and should be ashamed. Services should be prioritised according to clinical need, not the ability to pay.
It's worse than ever now, though, as so many of us are living far longer lives - with many more years of poor health. The costs are far higher, too, as so many new tests and treatments exist that just weren't available in the past. Demand for services has gone through the roof!
Casdon
Zoejory
Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.
Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"
www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politicsIt’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.
It is important to understand context. So what was going on in 1974?
navigator.health.org.uk/theme/labour-attempts-abolish-private-provision-nhs
Has the NHS ever been free of financial problems?
Casdon
Zoejory
Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.
Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"
www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politicsIt’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.
PFIs have cost the NHS more in the long run.
John Major introduced them but Tony Blair expanded them.
Of course, there are no PFIs in Wales but Wales is no better than England for healthcare.
Callistemon21
growstuff
Two wrongs have never made a right!
Just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean that it has to continue or even be more prevalent.
FWIW I don't remember that it was ever this difficult to get a GP appointment under the Blair government, nor do I remember such long ambulance queues.Was it wrong?
It seemed to be a good solution at the time. DD got her operation done promptly and was able to go off travelling as planned.
Friends got their cataracts, hips, knees done at a facility in England which was private/NHS and could get on with their lives.
Would these surgeons work full-tme for the NHS?
No, possibly not because of the rules about pension contributions and tax.
Yet another NHS Consultant was on TV the other day because he is leaving, even though he wants to continue working in the NHS, because of the complex tax rules regarding pensions.
He really wants to continue working for the NHS but the rules regarding pension make this financially impractical.
It’s this. The government have caused the problem, it’s not been created within the NHS.
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8626/
growstuff
Two wrongs have never made a right!
Just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean that it has to continue or even be more prevalent.
FWIW I don't remember that it was ever this difficult to get a GP appointment under the Blair government, nor do I remember such long ambulance queues.
Was it wrong?
It seemed to be a good solution at the time. DD got her operation done promptly and was able to go off travelling as planned.
Friends got their cataracts, hips, knees done at a facility in England which was private/NHS and could get on with their lives.
Would these surgeons work full-tme for the NHS?
No, possibly not because of the rules about pension contributions and tax.
Yet another NHS Consultant was on TV the other day because he is leaving, even though he wants to continue working in the NHS, because of the complex tax rules regarding pensions.
He really wants to continue working for the NHS but the rules regarding pension make this financially impractical.
Zoejory
Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.
Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"
www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics
It’s important to understand context. Labour inherited long waiting lists in 1997, and managing them to bring the service back to a state of control was the priority. Using private healthcare to support activity within the NHS is a very different ideological concept to the public paying for treatment. Fundamentally that is the difference between the two parties, Labour have never supported an NHS which is not free to all at point of use.
M0nica
How naive you all are.
Ahem! 
Two wrongs have never made a right!
Just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean that it has to continue or even be more prevalent.
FWIW I don't remember that it was ever this difficult to get a GP appointment under the Blair government, nor do I remember such long ambulance queues.
Mrs Blair was so keen she co-founded a private healthcare firm which was to operate here in the UK, but based in the Cayman Islands.
It went into liquidation in 2015.
Very true, Callistemon. Tony Blair was very keen to utilise private healthcare alongside the NHS. This from 2004.
Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing"
www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics
yes, and essential operations done privately under the pseudo NHS flag, are just expensive bribes, to create a need, a comparatively positive experience, a sort of free bonus ...
This has been happening for very many years.
It must be 20 or so years ago that DD had an operation carried out in a private hospital courtesy of the NHS and we have heard of many instances since then.
It was a Labour initiative. It's nothing new.
M0nica
How naive you all are.
well, it seems that it is very much a case of pot and kettle.
What is your experience in the field? Put forwards your evidence, please.
Please tell me how private insurance works. Is it not based on profit and risk assessment? And for health care on age and pre-exisiting conditions? Why is saying this naive? Don't give one sentence replies- Put your evidence into balanced arguments.
How naive you all are.
yes, and essential operations done privately under the pseudo NHS flag, are just expensive bribes, to create a need, a comparatively positive experience, a sort of free bonus ...
anyone with a realistic view of life will know that nothing is free, especially not in private health care. Once the seed of need and want is planted ... and waiting and pain on the other side- you can just add on the dollars.
Ever read the theory of privatisation? Defund, add pain, and need, and want, give bribes and tasters - then bob is your uncle (but only for those who can pay for it and s*d the rest).
Incidentally "contracting out" on a massive scale has everything to do with privatising healthcare.
MOnica ''
I have asked several times for the evidence that the government agenda is an American style health system and answer comes there none.''
how about you put forward evidence to the contrary. all the signs point to a USA type system- but please show us evidence to the contrary.
As for Private Health care taken pressure off the NHS- it would take quite a while for me to put the case to prove the contrary.
I shall start at the simplest level- an NHS appointment is 10 minutes max for a GP, but 30 and more minutes for a private appointment. Now with a shortage of doctors, nurses and other staff- you try and multiply this for Consultants appointments and operations. More space, more facilities, more time- mostly for the 'rich, lucrative and worried well' and less and less for the rest. As for Private Insurance, based on profit and more profit, the older and the more pre exisiting conditions, and the most difficult, expensive or impossible. It just does NOT add up.
MOnica You have been told why the government isn't stupid enough to be honest about its intentions.
I agree with you Fleurpepper. It's absolutely relevant. Staff working in the private sector can't be in two places at once, so the NHS is being deprived of staff. Not only that, but there's no incentive to fund the NHS adequately, if those with power can just pay for their treatment anyway.
''The above is irrelevant''
it is 100% totally and utterly relevant, au contraire! It is all linked. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses and other staff- and if they spend a large % working on private care, which takes an awful lot more time and resources than NHS- then that makes everything much worse for those who can't afford it. Quite simple, really (and sadly).
The rot was set by Maggie Thatcher when she introduced private health care companies into the UK with an eventually outcome that we would have health care as they have in the US - because, of course, it works so well there, doesn't it!
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