Sometimes I am ashamed

Ohh dear, this is all very unsettling. I no longer like this world I am living in. I've never been easily feared of anything but I am feared for the young generation and for my grandchildren who still very sweet and innocent. How on earth will they walk through such a minefield of confusion whilst trying to sort out who they really are. It was difficult enough when life was simple. What does the future hold for humanity, I'm in despair.

As far as I can see, no one's being persecuted for feeling they are trapped in the wrong body, but women are being persecuted for stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman, and for voicing their concern that an intact male can access women's safe spaces by simply declaring that they 'feel' like a woman, and women have to accept them as such.

Can I please join the group of those who have no problem with men who have been born in what they are sure is the wrong body and go through hormone treatment and major surgery . They then live quietly as what Doodledog describes as honorary women, and I too would be happy to welcome them into women's spaces.

The intact men who think that being a woman is a feeling and want to keep their genitals and beards while claiming to be women, and the aggressive Trans Rights Activists who want to decapitate people who disagree with them, are nothing like that, and I feel about them the same as I feel about any other aggressive people who threaten me. That does not make me transphobic.

DH isn’t much taller than me. But he’s much, much stronger. I know that because there are jobs round the house that I can’t possibly do and he just does them easily. I guess that I’m looking at this as someone that has always accepted people for what they are and like to think I have no prejudices (although I accept the fact that I do have them often without realising it). So I don’t know what it’s like to be someone who feels they are trapped in the wrong body and are persecuted because of it. Which is why I’m trying to understand what this is all about. I just know that, although I think I’m quite a confident person, there are situations where I feel afraid of someone that I know is much stronger than I am.

Surgically transitioned woman, India Willoughby has stated on Twitter that she is more of a woman than JK Rowling will ever be Not sure how she works that one out and how she thinks she has the qualities to evaluate the woman like characteristics of a natal woman. JK Rowling has been through many stages of the female lived experiences, such as puberty, menstruation, childbirth and possibly the menopause, or the early stages of it. It's not all flicky hair, short skirts,manicured nails and wondering what on earth to wear every day. Oh and I
nearly forgot this essential snippet, last but not least, always be sure to remove leg hair fellow women, as I previously read India thinks that women who don't are disgusting, well that's told the rest of us!

Oh, and for the record, I don't hate anyone! I have no issue with anyone living as they wish. It is the colonising of women's spaces and declaration of 'rights' that I find objectionable, particularly the attempts to get them enshrined in law.

MayBee70

Germanshepherdsmum

If a person looks so very obviously male that it’s a reasonable assumption he still has male genitalia then to me that is a man dressed as a woman.

I was going to ask about this, as I’m very confused about the whole issue. I like to think that I’m someone that has never been homophobic etc and have brought my children up in the same way. Like most women I’ve been in situations where I’ve felt vulnerable and afraid eg as a teenager being confronted by a flasher and, at a crowded craft fair when I had young children with me had someone press themselves against me whispering obscenities in my ear. So can someone say they’re female if they still have male genitalia? I’m actually scared to ask this in case I’m accused of being anti something or other.

Unfortunately (IMO) yes, people say they are female without doing anything other than saying it.

That is the problem. Men are telling women that being a woman is just about 'a feeling' (try asking for a definition and you'll be rudely told that you are asking a leading question, or playing tricks). They then say that as women, they can enter women's spaces, join women's groups, use women's refuges etc.
Women say that no, it's about far more than that, and are called TERFs, and threatened with death.

I am at the more liberal end of the fact-based approach, and would say that surgically transitioned transwomen are honorary women. They will never be women, as that's not possible, but they are at least showing commitment. If they take female hormones they are less likely to have a male sex drive, and I would have no objections to their sharing women's spaces. I feel very differently about males with male hormones, genitals and bodies. Being a woman is not about what you wear. There is so much more to it than that.

Some want it all ways - a male person who has male genitals, male hormones, likes sex with women is not a lesbian - he is a straight man.

MayBee70 - you’re far from alone. I do have a variety of close experience going back many years and I don’t understand where this need to label yourself in a confrontational manner has come from. In the 80s I knew someone that had had a sex change male to female, and was proud of being what she called a ‘Shim’. I also knew someone for around six months (in a pub) that looked like any of the girls but was aghast that I hadn’t picked up he was a boy who was transitioning.
Did it matter? No, they were people. People that we like or loathe because of what? Think of someone that you dislike and I bet there’s a 101 reasons why that might be. How they look or what they want for themselves rarely comes into it.
The one thing I’m not sure about is just how much prejudice is given towards those veering away from the general norm. But I know that I’m more likely to have my buttons pressed by someone wanting to be considered special through that difference that someone just getting on with life.
I’ve just remembered an oldish chap who, in the 70s, would cycle down Northbrook Street in Newbury dressed as a woman. Was he hated - not at all.
(I’m off to ponder on what’s gone so wrong)

MayBee70 this prominent lesbian transwoman psychotherapist has not had surgery and doesn't take hormone therapy, but proclaims themselves female and broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman

Germanshepherdsmum

If a person looks so very obviously male that it’s a reasonable assumption he still has male genitalia then to me that is a man dressed as a woman.

I was going to ask about this, as I’m very confused about the whole issue. I like to think that I’m someone that has never been homophobic etc and have brought my children up in the same way. Like most women I’ve been in situations where I’ve felt vulnerable and afraid eg as a teenager being confronted by a flasher and, at a crowded craft fair when I had young children with me had someone press themselves against me whispering obscenities in my ear. So can someone say they’re female if they still have male genitalia? I’m actually scared to ask this in case I’m accused of being anti something or other.

It’s not you, it’s the undertow of rudeness dealt out by a few where an opposing view is presented.
People don’t have to think a forcefully put view is the only right, they can own their own version of right until they’ve been given cause to reconsider through that presented by others.
I don’t know you from Adam (or given the subject, Eve). But I do know aggression isn’t good for anyone’s soul. Maybe those dealing it out have forgotten to be self considerate.

I have no time for opinions that are based on misinformation and ignorance. ("Ignorance" based on the original meaning of the word - i.e. lack of knowledge about something, not stupidity. Before anyone takes offence.).

If people have opinions based on reality, very good. I disagree with people on the Happy Valley thread about how it will end and why the chemist did what he did, but those are actual opinions, not misreadings of reality, and none of that actually impacts people's lives.

If you think I look silly, well I'll just have to live with that. I think I'll survive. Now, have you anything to say about the actual topic of the thread or would you just like to continue giving me unsought advice about my character?

Volver - why so aggressive? As said before, in the end you’ll be the one looking silly. Have time for other people’s opinions please, it’s only reasonable.

Oops, self reported for removal as wrong thread.
Totally thrown by unwanted videos in the middle of messages I am reading!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nice tactic DoodleDog.

I see you.

volver

^Shifting the emphasis to point out that I don't know who the men are' doesn't alter anything I said.^

No, it means that you will jump to conclusions about people you don't know anything about and base your claims on untruths.

So, we know where we are, don't we.

Ok

Granny23

The people I have most sympathy for are those who have been living quietly in their chosen gender for years, without causing any harm to anyone. The whole issue has become politicised (eg describing a free vote in the SG, which saw cross party support and dissent as only the SNP's 'Bill') and now embroiled in a cross border stand off. I ask people if they have ever known someone who has transitioned and the answer is usually 'NO' even though I know that there are trans people of their acquaintance - they just have not noticed because it has never caused a problem.

Yes, I agree HousePlantQueen, it is a sensible post.

Well said, Granny23.

I did wonder if some is argument for argument's sake!! 😁

Anyway, I've said what I think.
Am I allowed to go now?

Aveline

Volver I somehow think that if we were all pro trans activism you'd be agin us all!

I'm against people who jump on bandwagons or who try to make their cases without really knowing what's true and what's not.

Granny23

The people I have most sympathy for are those who have been living quietly in their chosen gender for years, without causing any harm to anyone. The whole issue has become politicised (eg describing a free vote in the SG, which saw cross party support and dissent as only the SNP's 'Bill') and now embroiled in a cross border stand off. I ask people if they have ever known someone who has transitioned and the answer is usually 'NO' even though I know that there are trans people of their acquaintance - they just have not noticed because it has never caused a problem.

This is the most level headed post on this thread. I am a Scot, I am not ashamed of my country, but I am very alarmed by the lengths that Ms Sturgeon will go to push the only policy she has ie Independence, and how a group of vulnerable people are being used to do so.

Meanwhile MP Joanna Cherry, said: 'I'm sure my colleagues didn't realise they were standing in front of a hateful sign threatening violence against women and will distance themselves from it.

Mr McDonald tweeted: 'The violent sign at yesterday's rally is utterly heinous and condemned without question. I suspect it may even be unlawful.

'The moron who made it and is holding it has done those protesting for trans equality and democracy no favours – quite the opposite.'

We can all do selective quoting.

Volver I somehow think that if we were all pro trans activism you'd be agin us all!

Both later condemned the sign and said they were not aware of it as they posed for the picture – which was shared by Harry Potter author JK Rowling to her almost 14 million Twitter followers
Daily Mail

Oh, please 😁

As I said, the Clinton excuse.

Shifting the emphasis to point out that I don't know who the men are' doesn't alter anything I said.

No, it means that you will jump to conclusions about people you don't know anything about and base your claims on untruths.

So, we know where we are, don't we.