Sometimes I am ashamed

Oops, self reported for removal as wrong thread.
Totally thrown by unwanted videos in the middle of messages I am reading!

Volver - why so aggressive? As said before, in the end you’ll be the one looking silly. Have time for other people’s opinions please, it’s only reasonable.

I have no time for opinions that are based on misinformation and ignorance. ("Ignorance" based on the original meaning of the word - i.e. lack of knowledge about something, not stupidity. Before anyone takes offence.).

If people have opinions based on reality, very good. I disagree with people on the Happy Valley thread about how it will end and why the chemist did what he did, but those are actual opinions, not misreadings of reality, and none of that actually impacts people's lives.

If you think I look silly, well I'll just have to live with that. I think I'll survive. Now, have you anything to say about the actual topic of the thread or would you just like to continue giving me unsought advice about my character?

It’s not you, it’s the undertow of rudeness dealt out by a few where an opposing view is presented.
People don’t have to think a forcefully put view is the only right, they can own their own version of right until they’ve been given cause to reconsider through that presented by others.
I don’t know you from Adam (or given the subject, Eve). But I do know aggression isn’t good for anyone’s soul. Maybe those dealing it out have forgotten to be self considerate.

Germanshepherdsmum

If a person looks so very obviously male that it’s a reasonable assumption he still has male genitalia then to me that is a man dressed as a woman.

I was going to ask about this, as I’m very confused about the whole issue. I like to think that I’m someone that has never been homophobic etc and have brought my children up in the same way. Like most women I’ve been in situations where I’ve felt vulnerable and afraid eg as a teenager being confronted by a flasher and, at a crowded craft fair when I had young children with me had someone press themselves against me whispering obscenities in my ear. So can someone say they’re female if they still have male genitalia? I’m actually scared to ask this in case I’m accused of being anti something or other.

MayBee70 this prominent lesbian transwoman psychotherapist has not had surgery and doesn't take hormone therapy, but proclaims themselves female and broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman

MayBee70 - you’re far from alone. I do have a variety of close experience going back many years and I don’t understand where this need to label yourself in a confrontational manner has come from. In the 80s I knew someone that had had a sex change male to female, and was proud of being what she called a ‘Shim’. I also knew someone for around six months (in a pub) that looked like any of the girls but was aghast that I hadn’t picked up he was a boy who was transitioning.
Did it matter? No, they were people. People that we like or loathe because of what? Think of someone that you dislike and I bet there’s a 101 reasons why that might be. How they look or what they want for themselves rarely comes into it.
The one thing I’m not sure about is just how much prejudice is given towards those veering away from the general norm. But I know that I’m more likely to have my buttons pressed by someone wanting to be considered special through that difference that someone just getting on with life.
I’ve just remembered an oldish chap who, in the 70s, would cycle down Northbrook Street in Newbury dressed as a woman. Was he hated - not at all.
(I’m off to ponder on what’s gone so wrong)

MayBee70

Germanshepherdsmum

If a person looks so very obviously male that it’s a reasonable assumption he still has male genitalia then to me that is a man dressed as a woman.

I was going to ask about this, as I’m very confused about the whole issue. I like to think that I’m someone that has never been homophobic etc and have brought my children up in the same way. Like most women I’ve been in situations where I’ve felt vulnerable and afraid eg as a teenager being confronted by a flasher and, at a crowded craft fair when I had young children with me had someone press themselves against me whispering obscenities in my ear. So can someone say they’re female if they still have male genitalia? I’m actually scared to ask this in case I’m accused of being anti something or other.

Unfortunately (IMO) yes, people say they are female without doing anything other than saying it.

That is the problem. Men are telling women that being a woman is just about 'a feeling' (try asking for a definition and you'll be rudely told that you are asking a leading question, or playing tricks). They then say that as women, they can enter women's spaces, join women's groups, use women's refuges etc.
Women say that no, it's about far more than that, and are called TERFs, and threatened with death.

I am at the more liberal end of the fact-based approach, and would say that surgically transitioned transwomen are honorary women. They will never be women, as that's not possible, but they are at least showing commitment. If they take female hormones they are less likely to have a male sex drive, and I would have no objections to their sharing women's spaces. I feel very differently about males with male hormones, genitals and bodies. Being a woman is not about what you wear. There is so much more to it than that.

Some want it all ways - a male person who has male genitals, male hormones, likes sex with women is not a lesbian - he is a straight man.

Oh, and for the record, I don't hate anyone! I have no issue with anyone living as they wish. It is the colonising of women's spaces and declaration of 'rights' that I find objectionable, particularly the attempts to get them enshrined in law.

Surgically transitioned woman, India Willoughby has stated on Twitter that she is more of a woman than JK Rowling will ever be Not sure how she works that one out and how she thinks she has the qualities to evaluate the woman like characteristics of a natal woman. JK Rowling has been through many stages of the female lived experiences, such as puberty, menstruation, childbirth and possibly the menopause, or the early stages of it. It's not all flicky hair, short skirts,manicured nails and wondering what on earth to wear every day. Oh and I
nearly forgot this essential snippet, last but not least, always be sure to remove leg hair fellow women, as I previously read India thinks that women who don't are disgusting, well that's told the rest of us!

DH isn’t much taller than me. But he’s much, much stronger. I know that because there are jobs round the house that I can’t possibly do and he just does them easily. I guess that I’m looking at this as someone that has always accepted people for what they are and like to think I have no prejudices (although I accept the fact that I do have them often without realising it). So I don’t know what it’s like to be someone who feels they are trapped in the wrong body and are persecuted because of it. Which is why I’m trying to understand what this is all about. I just know that, although I think I’m quite a confident person, there are situations where I feel afraid of someone that I know is much stronger than I am.

Can I please join the group of those who have no problem with men who have been born in what they are sure is the wrong body and go through hormone treatment and major surgery . They then live quietly as what Doodledog describes as honorary women, and I too would be happy to welcome them into women's spaces.

The intact men who think that being a woman is a feeling and want to keep their genitals and beards while claiming to be women, and the aggressive Trans Rights Activists who want to decapitate people who disagree with them, are nothing like that, and I feel about them the same as I feel about any other aggressive people who threaten me. That does not make me transphobic.

As far as I can see, no one's being persecuted for feeling they are trapped in the wrong body, but women are being persecuted for stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman, and for voicing their concern that an intact male can access women's safe spaces by simply declaring that they 'feel' like a woman, and women have to accept them as such.

Ohh dear, this is all very unsettling. I no longer like this world I am living in. I've never been easily feared of anything but I am feared for the young generation and for my grandchildren who still very sweet and innocent. How on earth will they walk through such a minefield of confusion whilst trying to sort out who they really are. It was difficult enough when life was simple. What does the future hold for humanity, I'm in despair.

Rosie51

MayBee70 this prominent lesbian transwoman psychotherapist has not had surgery and doesn't take hormone therapy, but proclaims themselves female and ^broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman^

You’d think he’d lose the beard wouldn't you? He looks ridiculous!!
Not a lesbian at all, how can he be? 😂😭do you laugh or cry?

Smileless2012

As far as I can see, no one's being persecuted for feeling they are trapped in the wrong body, but women are being persecuted for stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman, and for voicing their concern that an intact male can access women's safe spaces by simply declaring that they 'feel' like a woman, and women have to accept them as such.

That’s it in a nutshell.

TerriBull

Surgically transitioned woman, India Willoughby has stated on Twitter that she is more of a woman than JK Rowling will ever be Not sure how she works that one out and how she thinks she has the qualities to evaluate the woman like characteristics of a natal woman. JK Rowling has been through many stages of the female lived experiences, such as puberty, menstruation, childbirth and possibly the menopause, or the early stages of it. It's not all flicky hair, short skirts,manicured nails and wondering what on earth to wear every day. Oh and I
nearly forgot this essential snippet, last but not least, always be sure to remove leg hair fellow women, as I previously read India thinks that women who don't are disgusting, well that's told the rest of us!

Oh dear, better tell all the celebs who don't shave any more eg Julia Roberts, Cameron Diaz, Madonna, Drew Barrymore, Miley Cyrus, Kristen Stewart, Kelly Rowland, M'onique etc.

Keep up, India Willoughby.

I saw that Tweet, too, Terribull

Did you see JKR's response? 😂

broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman 😂😂😂
Rose51
And psychotherapist ?? 😂 if you didn't laugh you'd cry.

Callistemon21

^broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman^ 😂😂😂
Rose51
And psychotherapist ?? 😂 if you didn't laugh you'd cry.

www.confer.uk.com/biogs/biog_drummond.html

I think you live in Wales? If you fancy seeing a private practice psychotherapist you could choose Alex

If those politicians had asked any woman involved in this debate they could have pointed out that those type of placards are fairly common, die terfs is the most popular but they seem to be expanding their repertoire. Utter violent misogyny. The more this is seen the more people are going to say hold on a moment.
This issue tends to be utterly damaging for any political party that gets involved in it, they maybe should have chatted to the Green party or the lib dems.

Rosie51

Callistemon21

broadening the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman 😂😂😂
Rose51
And psychotherapist ?? 😂 if you didn't laugh you'd cry.

www.confer.uk.com/biogs/biog_drummond.html

I think you live in Wales? If you fancy seeing a private practice psychotherapist you could choose Alex

Oh thank you for the information, Rosie51 😄

We could share tips on how to remove facial hair.
I use tweezers myself.

This issue tends to be utterly damaging for any political party that gets involved in it, they maybe should have chatted to the Green party or the lib dems.

Who voted for the GRR bill in Scotland's Parliament:

9% of Conservative MSPs
90% of Labour
100% of Lib Dems
86% of SNP MSPs
100% of the Greens.

Its almost as if all the parties were agreed on this except the Tories. Wonder why that might be...? We'll see how it goes for them at the next Scottish Election I suppose...

what is extreme about people wanting sex based laws to remain in place and why would that facilitate a groups murder?

TERF is a derogatory term used to silence natal born women