Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

I say what I think

VioletSky

Listen to the way you talk to me on every thread, it's exactly the way you just typed

I don't hold grudges, I'm just a happy person who gets over it

Really?

I’ve caught up with the last several pages this evening. It’s no surprise I find posts from Galaxy, Doodle and Mollygo (for example) reflect my own views on the subject under discussion reflect my own beliefs. I also find them coherent and easy to read.
Like many other gransnetters I have trans, gay, lesbian friends and family members. It doesn’t mean I’ve lived their experience but I’ve shared it.
I dont want to personalise the debate here but comments like this from you Violet Sky make it difficult to avoid it

Sometimes it’s easier to empathise-
Easier to empathise with the feelings of female inmates and staff who are faced with sharing their prison premises with a male rapist, than to empathise with the male in the title of this thread who wants to be incarcerated with those of the very sex he raped.

Caleo

Doodledog wrote:

" the nature of empathy is such that it doesn't rely on having gone through the exact same thing as the person being empathised with, so anyone can empathise with anyone else, really."

Empathy has a good reputation since we all learned about it. While it's good to be merciful and kind, it's not actually possible to experience what someone else experiences.

No, and even if we did we wouldn't feel the same about it, because of our past experience and personality etc.

We can understand how someone might be feeling, based on how we would feel (or have felt) in the circumstances, but assuming that we know exactly how they 'tick', or that they will share our opinions is risky.

VioletSky

Mollygo

We do not have to engage with each other

I only reply to you, I do not engage

?? ???
Feel free to do neither if it makes you happy.

Mollygo

We do not have to engage with each other

I only reply to you, I do not engage

Doodledog wrote:

" the nature of empathy is such that it doesn't rely on having gone through the exact same thing as the person being empathised with, so anyone can empathise with anyone else, really."

Empathy has a good reputation since we all learned about it. While it's good to be merciful and kind, it's not actually possible to experience what someone else experiences.

VS, keep saying your version if it makes you happy. I won’t bother repeating how you appear to me. I’m just glad you prompted me to say it once, so you’ll know.

Listen to the way you talk to me on every thread, it's exactly the way you just typed

I don't hold grudges, I'm just a happy person who gets over it

Your version of events again VS.
I find you confrontational, accusatory and Inaccepting of the truth, but I haven’t commented on that because that’s just what I expect from you.

Whyare you so confrontational then Mollygo

I don't attack you on a personal level in any way so if you aren't defensive why do you do it?

VS, I’m not defensive. That’s your version a
which could equally apply (as your version) to whatever you say.
I’m just stating facts. You don’t have to agree with them, but it doesn’t make them any less true.

VioletSky

What can we do to help people with those fears?

Today 15:46 Doodledog

Not allow male-bodied people into their spaces?
That’s be a good start Doodledog.

Not allow male-bodied people into their spaces?

What can we do to help people with those fears?

Yes, that would help, but we're in the situation we were in in the 80s when people believed that you couldn't use blackboards because they were black, rather than that the chalk dust was bad for asthma. So many people are confused by the law, and are scared.

It's organisations that need the equality act read to them

It's not being defensive to answer direct questions, which is what I am doing.

The behaviour of criminals impacts on whether people who care about women feel about allowing self-identified transpeople to enter female spaces. This will have an impact on transpeople who mean no harm, but IMO that is less important than the safety of women. As long as male-bodied people can enter female spaces there is a risk to women, and transwomen are male-bodied, so they should not be allowed to enter. IMO surgically transitioned transwomen are a different category, but they are relatively rare, and there would be problems with determining who they are, so it is probably simpler to have a blanket ban.

Does that agree with both of you?

It would help if you both weren't being so defensive

Not everything I say is about anyone, I'm just putting it out there

You can believe that the behaviour of some impacts how the rest are viewed but I don't share that mindset Mollygo and I don't know how to explain it to you. Perhaps doodledog can because we agree on that

VioletSky

No, being GC does not make people bad people Mollygo

What makes people bad people is how they behave and how they treat others

There you go again, applying your choice of appellation to others. It’s really rather rude, but obviously you don’t see it as that.

Your second point is correct.
So what would you do about the TW who behave badly, treat others badly and impact badly on the lives of the innocent trans, and in the light of my previous post, impact badly on the lives of G&L ?

VioletSky

That's not really fair is it

I am LGBT so I can't deny our history because of those who would like the T removed and I also should not be asked to do that by anyone

Others cannot dictate who I belong with, who I am willing to stand up for or who I empathise with

So either you can understand where I am coming from or you can choose not to

But that doesn't make it right to deny my reasoning for my comments and draw conclusions about me as a person from it

I am drawing no conclusions about you as a person.

I didn't say that you can't deny your history either, and I am not dictating anything - you do put words into my mouth a lot 😀. What I am saying is that on one hand you are suggesting that your bisexuality means that you can speak more authoritatively about that than those from other groups (fair enough), and on the other that you are able to empathise with trans people when they are no more likely to also be bisexual than anyone else (not so fair enough). You don't, however, know anything about the sexuality of others on here, so can't assume anything about that, or about how your opinions carry more weight based on your own. Plus, the nature of empathy is such that it doesn't rely on having gone through the exact same thing as the person being empathised with, so anyone can empathise with anyone else, really.

I am also saying that whilst sexuality is an important part of someone's identity it does not define us in ways that mean people of different sexualities share opinions or outlooks on very much else.

No, being GC does not make people bad people Mollygo

What makes people bad people is how they behave and how they treat others

Not accepting TW as female doesn’t make others bad people.
The word woman has been corrupted by males to include them and used by a minority of TW to commit crimes, and impact negatively on the public perception of all trans.

I have never not offered others the same courtesy

Maybe all LGB do not remember who marched shoulder to shoulder with them and who still does at PRIDE. Maybe some LGB do not attend PRIDE? I wouldn't know but many do accept the T and I am allowed to stand with them and that identity will govern how I talk about this

I have always stood up for women's rights in these threads as a woman too and shared my concerns and my ideas for solutions to ensure all rights are protected

The only real difference is that I accept trans women as women

And that doesn't make me a bad person

The only gay or lesbian people I know, including some I work with, and there are several, are not happy with being, as they have put it, dragged into alignment with trans. They feel that they’ve fought hard enough for their rights and haven’t damaged others in the process.
Being grouped with trans (since the violence, cheating and lying by some, erupted) has caused people to query whether they (LG), support that and the claims to have changed sex in order to achieve things.
That’s hard, especially when you’re a teacher and some parents are aware that you have a wife, husband or partner of the same sex.
Parents who have not seen it as a problem before, but now wonder about the LG association with a group that has gained notoriety for violence cheating and lying.

I know that’s unfair on the majority of individuals, but as I have said repeatedly, the publicly seen damage caused by some TW and TRA has had an impact on how trans, in particular TW, are perceived.
Nobody wants to dictate who you belong with, who you are willing to stand up for or who you empathise with.
Afford others the same courtesy.

That's not really fair is it

I am LGBT so I can't deny our history because of those who would like the T removed and I also should not be asked to do that by anyone

Others cannot dictate who I belong with, who I am willing to stand up for or who I empathise with

So either you can understand where I am coming from or you can choose not to

But that doesn't make it right to deny my reasoning for my comments and draw conclusions about me as a person from it