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As well as starving the NHS, Education has been starved by this government too.

(243 Posts)
DaisyAnne Fri 27-Jan-23 10:30:59

I wonder if it will be called "The Starvation Government" in the future. With it applying to both people and the services governments promise to provide.

Where education is concerned, school spending, in real terms, has fallen 9% between 2010 and 2020, with the IFS saying this is the largest cut in 40 years.

Never mind the extremists who tell us we all have to pay for what we get or go without.

And never mind the other extremists who shout at and abuse anyone paying for education rather than actually working out how to achieve good education now.

How about just funding the current system and then working out how to improve it, rather than the extreme politicking, which only produces government by spasm and the only progress being backwards.

MaizieD Tue 31-Jan-23 22:22:56

Chocolatelovinggran

I take your point Mollygo. Maizie I found ( 40 years early years teacher) the years of Literacy Strategy , Additional Literacy Strategy, Extra Literacy Strategy and Further Literacy Strategy unsuccessful with some children. It was the educational version of the " mixture as before" medical technique.

None of those incorporated any systematic phonics instruction and they promoted the 'three cueing' strategy, plus a nod to letter sound correspondence, in the 'Searchlights'. It's not in the least bit surprising that they didn't do much good.

Mollygo Tue 31-Jan-23 22:15:33

VioletSky

Sounds like Mollygo would have followed the same systems I see so not sure why I was told off lol

VS I’m sorry if your description of the children was inaccurate. I based my comment on that. Your excuse for your accusation is based on the same passage.

Mollygo Tue 31-Jan-23 21:59:15

Reading Recovery is a course designated for first year children in the USA.
No
Your version might be. The one we use was from New Zealand. It was highly successful with the children she worked with and we continued it after she left.
If the activity you refer to didn’t work-I hope you didn’t continue with it.

MaizieD Tue 31-Jan-23 21:53:24

www.dyslexia.com/research/articles/alternative-brain-pathways/
www.dyslexia-reading-well.com/causes-of-dyslexia.html
Both of these explain why phonetic teaching which relies on left brain development is not always suitable for dyslexics who benefit from teaching that encompasses and develops right brain neural pathways.

Unfortunately the first paper is a study of adults who were already reading. As the neural pathways created by phonics instruction are different from those created by whole word, look & say instruction, and the research subjects were US adults who were more likely to have received that instruction (because 'phonics' is still in minority use in the US, the research paper tells us nothing useful about phonics instruction. A long term RCT on children being taught by different methods would have been more helpful.

The second website seems to rely heavily on this 'research'.

The thing I find most ironic is that Dr Orton, working on dyslexia in the 1920 (when whole word was the predominant instructional method) concluded that the best way to help dyslexics was a solid grounding in phonics instruction. The Orton Gillingham programme from the 1930s was the gold standard remedial programme in the English speaking world for decades.

Chocolatelovinggran Tue 31-Jan-23 20:57:03

I take your point Mollygo. Maizie I found ( 40 years early years teacher) the years of Literacy Strategy , Additional Literacy Strategy, Extra Literacy Strategy and Further Literacy Strategy unsuccessful with some children. It was the educational version of the " mixture as before" medical technique.

VioletSky Tue 31-Jan-23 20:53:40

Sounds like Mollygo would have followed the same systems I see so not sure why I was told off lol

Glorianny Tue 31-Jan-23 20:40:53

Mollygo I’ve used Reading Recovery and Toe by Toe, both of which proved really helpful for children with dyslexia and were enjoyed by the children along with other strategies learnt from the INSET courses
Reading Recovery is a course designated for first year children in the USA and its use in children with dyslexia hs been widely criticised.
Toe by Toe relies on daily repetition of the same sounds etc. I can find no research that shows it is effective in dyslexic children.
How either of those systems inspires a child who is dyslexic I don't know.

The simple fact is that the child's ability to read and write without the assistance of technology will always be behind the child's real ability. In order to demonstrate their real abilities children need people who understand this and who accept that using and understanding language is not dependent on literacy. Not providing them with the equipment and the resources they need is equivalent to depriving a child with visual impairment of the resources they need .

VioletSky Tue 31-Jan-23 19:08:31

glorriany

This sort of thing has to be challenged and changed

The children I work with are too young for any kind of diagnosis and my adapted learning sessions are focused primarily on fine and gross motor skills and finding fun ways to help children bring sounds with them but I see the start of the issues and I'm a bit opinionated about it lol

VioletSky Tue 31-Jan-23 18:58:56

Also it's entirely dishonest to only quote part of a post in order to deliberately take it out of context and be insulting

Just pointing that out

VioletSky Tue 31-Jan-23 18:53:59

Mollygo

VS I’m horrified to think that children in your care suffer the way you describe;
What should we do? Stay on the same sheet of words because the child is not learning to recognise enough of them and can't process enough to bring all their phonics sounds with them even have they managed to learn them?

Rotate a few sheets of words? Just add a few more sheets to add some variation and compound the problem that already exists?

Plough on through the sheets week by week with a pat on the back for wasting time?

Watch their eyes glaze over during imput because they know they won't remember all the instructions and won't be able to hand in a piece of written work that in any way reflects all the interesting things in their heads?
Do none of the teachers where you work have ways to inspire and support children with dyslexia?

In my care?

Are there any depths you won't stoop too to get at me?

Mollygo Tue 31-Jan-23 18:47:29

VS I’m horrified to think that children in your care suffer the way you describe;
What should we do? Stay on the same sheet of words because the child is not learning to recognise enough of them and can't process enough to bring all their phonics sounds with them even have they managed to learn them?

Rotate a few sheets of words? Just add a few more sheets to add some variation and compound the problem that already exists?

Plough on through the sheets week by week with a pat on the back for wasting time?

Watch their eyes glaze over during imput because they know they won't remember all the instructions and won't be able to hand in a piece of written work that in any way reflects all the interesting things in their heads?
Do none of the teachers where you work have ways to inspire and support children with dyslexia?

Doodledog Tue 31-Jan-23 18:40:31

My daughter uses the dictation facility in Word, but often with hilarious effect, particularly if she is tired, as she can't see the bloopers when she reads it back.

That didn't exist when she was at school (that is, I think there were assistive technologies but they were very specialist and not a feature of mainstream software). School work wasn't done on computers then, either. It is easier now for students with dyslexia as everyone uses technology in everything they do. The basics of reading large amounts of text make things difficult though, particularly when it comes to things like literature, which has either to be read with a robot voice or have the narrator's interpretation in the reading.

She does listen to audiobooks, but is very aware that it is a different experience from reading them herself.

Glorianny Tue 31-Jan-23 18:28:50

VioletSky

The main problem I see with supporting children with dyslexia is that it is boring.

What should we do? Stay on the same sheet of words because the child is not learning to recognise enough of them and can't process enough to bring all their phonics sounds with them even have they managed to learn them?

Rotate a few sheets of words? Just add a few more sheets to add some variation and compound the problem that already exists?

Plough on through the sheets week by week with a pat on the back for wasting time?

Watch their eyes glaze over during imput because they know they won't remember all the instructions and won't be able to hand in a piece of written work that in any way reflects all the interesting things in their heads?

Why are we boring the interest and effort out of dyslexic children?

Talk to type exists. Reading programmes exist. There are entire libraries of books online. There are programmes that can highlight important passages. There are reading pens.

Given that pretty much every child has a device in their hands by age 11, why do we care if someone can spell dyslexia if they can explain to you what it is?

Why do we expect a percentage of children to attain targets and allow an amount who can fail rather than having different avenues to the same target?

Hurray!! If only this was policy in schools. Thanks VioletSky for restoring my faith and showing me some people understand.

Doodledog Tue 31-Jan-23 18:27:31

It was to Maizie, Doodledog. I'm sure you are aware that was her post I quoted, not yours. I was happy to accept what you said earlier. I'm sure if we could see one another these things wouldn't happen.

Why would I want to make you feel uncomfortable? We now seem to be going backwards.

Oh. I'm sorry. I did think you were quoting me. Twice, possibly grin. Apologies.

ronib Tue 31-Jan-23 18:11:18

This is an off piste remark but has anyone see Play 1981 by Samuel Beckett? It’s three talking heads in huge flowerpots? There’s something about posting on Gransnet that conjures up this experience.Cacophony of voices ..,. If you see what I mean? But then I like Samuel Beckett…..

DaisyAnne Tue 31-Jan-23 18:05:50

Doodledog

*So who are you suggesting dropped in an opinion that you know will cause people to react emotionally and then close down debate by saying that you refuse to discuss it further after you've had your say. Maizie?*

As far as I am aware, it was ronib who first mentioned it. Are you now having a go at how they post? Why can't you just let people be themselves - whether or not they agree with your politics? Making people feel so uncomfortable they consider not posting, as I have done, is bullying. Why are you doing it?

I'm really not. I am joining in just as you are. You are certainly making me feel uncomfortable, but I assume that is intentional, and that you justify it as you think you have some sort of right to do what you are accusing me of doing? Why are you doing that?

It was to Maizie, Doodledog. I'm sure you are aware that was her post I quoted, not yours. I was happy to accept what you said earlier. I'm sure if we could see one another these things wouldn't happen.

Why would I want to make you feel uncomfortable? We now seem to be going backwards.

VioletSky Tue 31-Jan-23 17:43:00

The main problem I see with supporting children with dyslexia is that it is boring.

What should we do? Stay on the same sheet of words because the child is not learning to recognise enough of them and can't process enough to bring all their phonics sounds with them even have they managed to learn them?

Rotate a few sheets of words? Just add a few more sheets to add some variation and compound the problem that already exists?

Plough on through the sheets week by week with a pat on the back for wasting time?

Watch their eyes glaze over during imput because they know they won't remember all the instructions and won't be able to hand in a piece of written work that in any way reflects all the interesting things in their heads?

Why are we boring the interest and effort out of dyslexic children?

Talk to type exists. Reading programmes exist. There are entire libraries of books online. There are programmes that can highlight important passages. There are reading pens.

Given that pretty much every child has a device in their hands by age 11, why do we care if someone can spell dyslexia if they can explain to you what it is?

Why do we expect a percentage of children to attain targets and allow an amount who can fail rather than having different avenues to the same target?

ronib Tue 31-Jan-23 16:37:57

Mollygo one of my children had a visual problem which meant there was an imbalance in the sight of his eyes. This caused difficulties tracking words along a line.
The other child had a hearing impairment which also slowed his reading down. We waited until he was 3 for grommets which I later regretted.

Doodledog Tue 31-Jan-23 16:19:15

So who are you suggesting dropped in an opinion that you know will cause people to react emotionally and then close down debate by saying that you refuse to discuss it further after you've had your say. Maizie?

As far as I am aware, it was ronib who first mentioned it. Are you now having a go at how they post? Why can't you just let people be themselves - whether or not they agree with your politics? Making people feel so uncomfortable they consider not posting, as I have done, is bullying. Why are you doing it?

I'm really not. I am joining in just as you are. You are certainly making me feel uncomfortable, but I assume that is intentional, and that you justify it as you think you have some sort of right to do what you are accusing me of doing? Why are you doing that?

Mollygo Tue 31-Jan-23 14:23:50

Chocolatelovinggran, I agree there is no ‘only way’ of teaching reading. Pre synthetic phonics, children were faced with ita and Look and Say and sounding out cuh-a-tuh or cuh-ar-tuh neither of which sounds remotely like cat. They used shapes of words, (draw a shape round book, then see how many other words fit that pattern), contextual cues, picture cues and many others dreamt up not just by the government but by teachers.
The one thing all those ways did not have was consistency and continuation between teachers and methods.
Repeating a failed strategy is not helpful, but being faced with a different strategy just as you might be getting to grips with the first one isn’t helpful either.
I’ve used Reading Recovery and Toe by Toe, both of which proved really helpful for children with dyslexia and were enjoyed by the children along with other strategies learnt from the INSET courses.
All children are different. The best action for me is to apply a general strategy that works for most then find something that works for individuals.
Let’s not forget here, the problem of children from non-reader families. Parents who can read, but don’t see it as a valuable activity as well as those for whom reading is a struggle.

DaisyAnne Tue 31-Jan-23 14:21:46

Doodledog

FannyCornforth

And fwiw I’ve never seen anything even verging on ‘bullying’ from Doodledog

Thank you Fanny. That word gets bandied about a lot on here, and it seems to mean different things to different people. I know I can be forthright, but I would never deliberately bully anyone.

Maizie, you are right that it's an emotive subject, but it's hardly fair to drop in an opinion that you know will cause people to react emotionally and then close down debate by saying that you refuse to discuss it further after you've had your say.

So who are you suggesting dropped in an opinion that you know will cause people to react emotionally and then close down debate by saying that you refuse to discuss it further after you've had your say. Maizie?

As far as I am aware, it was ronib who first mentioned it. Are you now having a go at how they post? Why can't you just let people be themselves - whether or not they agree with your politics? Making people feel so uncomfortable they consider not posting, as I have done, is bullying. Why are you doing it?

Glorianny Tue 31-Jan-23 13:12:38

MaizieD

Chocolatelovinggran

We seem to have taken a detour from the original postulation a dyslexia debate. If I could bring it back a little, I so agree with FannyCornforth that phonics is an excellent way of teaching reading, but that it's not the only way . For some children, it makes more sense to look at the shape of a word ( so they can visualise the object such as cat or ham ) and then deconstruct the individual phonemes. Unfortunately, government diktats insisted that phonics was the only way - so poor children who didn't understand it the first time around were then subjected to endless revisiting of the same strategy. Hmm - maybe a different approach might be successful??
Along with funding issues, sadly, teachers, parents and students are at the mercy of ministers hobby horses.

Can you cite the peer reviewed academic research that supports your view on teaching reading?

Because, search as I might, I could never find it.

www.dyslexia.com/research/articles/alternative-brain-pathways/
www.dyslexia-reading-well.com/causes-of-dyslexia.html
Both of these explain why phonetic teaching which relies on left brain development is not always suitable for dyslexics who benefit from teaching that encompasses and develops right brain neural pathways.

Doodledog Tue 31-Jan-23 13:08:41

FannyCornforth

And fwiw I’ve never seen anything even verging on ‘bullying’ from Doodledog

Thank you Fanny. That word gets bandied about a lot on here, and it seems to mean different things to different people. I know I can be forthright, but I would never deliberately bully anyone.

Maizie, you are right that it's an emotive subject, but it's hardly fair to drop in an opinion that you know will cause people to react emotionally and then close down debate by saying that you refuse to discuss it further after you've had your say.

Mollygo Tue 31-Jan-23 13:06:28

Up to date primary schools have already had ongoing whole school (including TAs) training for working with dyslexia.
This has proved much more valuable than parents paying a fortune for a piece of paper that says their child is dyslexic because their Velcro -shoed, polo-shirted child can’t tie shoelaces, or ties, or kick a football, (Yes I have been faced with that on more than one occasion) and demanding a coloured overlay for their child. (We already had those and other tools and they do actually benefit some children, but being accused of getting the wrong sort/colour, when it didn’t immediately turn a struggling child into a reader-not helpful)

MaizieD Tue 31-Jan-23 12:52:44

Chocolatelovinggran

We seem to have taken a detour from the original postulation a dyslexia debate. If I could bring it back a little, I so agree with FannyCornforth that phonics is an excellent way of teaching reading, but that it's not the only way . For some children, it makes more sense to look at the shape of a word ( so they can visualise the object such as cat or ham ) and then deconstruct the individual phonemes. Unfortunately, government diktats insisted that phonics was the only way - so poor children who didn't understand it the first time around were then subjected to endless revisiting of the same strategy. Hmm - maybe a different approach might be successful??
Along with funding issues, sadly, teachers, parents and students are at the mercy of ministers hobby horses.

Can you cite the peer reviewed academic research that supports your view on teaching reading?

Because, search as I might, I could never find it.