As well as starving the NHS, Education has been starved by this government too.

JaneJudge

I don't want to be controversial but I'm sure quite of few of that percentage will be children with SEN too and complex home living situations, the very children who should be in school

Yes.

I do wonder how much difference it would make to state education if all ministers, or perhaps all MPs, were obliged to send their own children to state schools.

I think they should have to, varian, as well as use only NHS medicine.

It would be interesting if they also had to live in council houses and get by on a modal average wage, although I can see that there would be problems with enforcing those things. It would be good if they benefited/suffered from the results of their policies though.

Mollygo

JaneJudge

I don't want to be controversial but I'm sure quite of few of that percentage will be children with SEN too and complex home living situations, the very children who should be in school

Yes.

Undoubtedly and there will be schools who use this to actually keep control and reduce classroom disruption. If the child who causes trouble is consistently absent it makes teaching so much easier. This isn't a criticism of teachers or schools it is simply a way of coping with a system that is massively underfunded and which is left to clear up the problems of a fractured society.

varian

I do wonder how much difference it would make to state education if all ministers, or perhaps all MPs, were obliged to send their own children to state schools.

Brompton Oratory for Tony Blair’s children. How did this help anyone?

Grany

Hey,
@Keir_Starmer
! You're on record as saying on TV that you believe Corbyn was being smeared, that you stood by him & his actions, & that he was a decent leader and a good man.

Now you claim he was the exact opposite of those things.

Were you lying then, or are you lying now?

@simonmaginn
'I want to pay tribute to Jeremy Corbyn, who led our party through some really difficult times, who energised our movement, and who’s a friend as well as a colleague.' Starmer, K

'Corbyn allowed hate to spread in the party.' Starmer, K

A Starmer for every occasion.

Or, we could see it as an extremists remark for every occasion.

What has this comment got to do with the thread?

MaizieD

Grany

Hey,
@Keir_Starmer
! You're on record as saying on TV that you believe Corbyn was being smeared, that you stood by him & his actions, & that he was a decent leader and a good man.

Now you claim he was the exact opposite of those things.

Were you lying then, or are you lying now?

@simonmaginn
'I want to pay tribute to Jeremy Corbyn, who led our party through some really difficult times, who energised our movement, and who’s a friend as well as a colleague.' Starmer, K

'Corbyn allowed hate to spread in the party.' Starmer, K

A Starmer for every occasion.

And what does this have to do with the topic of this discussion, Grany?

Why don't you start your own Starmer hate thread?

Because there would be only one person posting when the saw the weird, out of context, extremisms?

There has been a huge expansion in provision for 3 to 4 year olds nursery school and disadvantaged 2 year olds under the Conservative government which I think is an attempt to improve
life chances for all.

Mollygo

Missed that one, but it’s true. Schools’ main funding is bums on seats.
Is there a reason for fewer children starting- low birth rate in 2018-2019? Or is there another cause?

There is plenty of data showing the higher the education of women, the lower the birth rate. For some years, there has been a slowly increasing gap. In the academic years of 2017/2018, the initial participation rate of women was 56.4% and of men was 44.6%.

Why does female education have a direct effect on fertility? The economic theory of fertility suggests an incentive effect: more educated women have higher opportunity costs of bearing children in terms of lost income. The household bargaining model suggests that more educated women are better able to support themselves and have more bargaining power, including on family size.

According to the ideation theory, more educated women may learn different ideas of desired family size through school, community, and exposure to global communication networks. Finally, more educated women know more about prenatal care and child health, and hence might have lower fertility because of greater confidence that their children will survive. *

It is good to know that a) more women are being allowed access to education to a higher level, and b) we no longer rely on the survival of a reasonable number of children to keep us when we can no longer keep ourselves.

*World Bank blogs.

Doodledog

I think they should have to, varian, as well as use only NHS medicine.

It would be interesting if they also had to live in council houses and get by on a modal average wage, although I can see that there would be problems with enforcing those things. It would be good if they benefited/suffered from the results of their policies though.

Do you know, if it achieved what we wanted it to achieve, it would be a good idea. At least some of our local MPs already do send their children to state schools, but they are the schools nearest to where they live and I haven’t noticed them having any impact on the other schools.
Sadly, unless you can specify which state schools they must use, I doubt it would make much difference.
Using NHS might have more impact though.

Fair point about the schools. Even if it had to be the catchment school, and even if they were living in an average salary, most of them would have funds to buy a house near the best school in the area. I don't blame them - I wouldn't have wanted my children to go to poorly performing schools either, but it is so wrong that the people who make policies for the rest of us never have to live with the results of them.

please someone explain why going to a sought after State school, if you have a very large income, is such an egalitarian move? From my point of view, children from poor families would benefit much more from going to a school like Brompton Oratory.

We've just said that it would be fairer if they had to go to a catchment school that is in an area where people on average incomes live.

I don’t understand. What is the catchment area for Downing Street?

No idea, but the PM and Chancellor have constituencies outside of that area, so it's not really relevant.

My point, as I'm sure you do understand, is that if MPs, and particularly cabinet ministers, had to live with the consequences of their policies by having average earnings and using the services that the people they are supposed to represent use, they will have a better idea of the impact of those policies.

Admittedly, that would mean that the less public spirited ones would vie for positions in better off areas where the services are better; but I suppose that means that the areas in need of levelling up will get the more socially concerned MPs, which has to be better than an area of deprivation being 'represented' by a millionaire.

Either way, if MPs are personally affected by socially divisive policies they are likely to put pressure on the cabinet to do something about them, aren't they?

Doodledog in a nutshell in the nicest possible way no this is never going to happen.

Mps do understand the impact of their policies when it comes to election time. They want to stay in power.

The children of mps will take the best state school places which otherwise would have gone to less wealthy families. I don’t think this is right.

Also I don’t see that because a person is an mp that anyone has the right to tell them where to educate their children. Diane Abbott sent her son to a private school but not for us to judge.

Parents should always have the ability to make decisions about their own children surely? I would much rather see a broader access policy to private schools rather than strive to close them down. In some cases parents will mix and match state and private school provision, there are no hard and fast rules anymore.

Well, that's a point of view, of course. I agree that it is not straightforward as there are areas that would struggle to get representation (although not all MPs have school age children). If there were no private schools it would be better, IMO, as we would really be 'all in it together', but we are a long way from that happening, unfortunately.

I knew Diane Abbott would come into this - I think it was a bad move on her part to educate her children privately, but she got so much racial abuse (and still does) that she maybe thought that they'd be safer somewhere they wouldn't stand out. I don't know, though, and can't speak for her.

I just feel that it is wrong that the people of the country are ruled by those who are not impacted by the policies they put into place. It's easy to cut funding the the NHS when neither you nor your family use it, and the same is true, IMO of education and housing.

I would much rather see a broader access policy to private schools rather than strive to close them down.

I think that would only benefit middle class parents. Private schools aren't very thick on the ground in my area, travel costs alone would rule it out for poorer parents. Besides which, who'd be paying the fees and if you introduced state funded children the schools would need to expand to accommodate the extra intake.

And why should only some children be able to access this elitist education?

ronib the Blair sons went to the London Oratory School, a state funded Catholic school. I imagine they went because they are Catholics.
I don't personally agree with faith schools, but they were entitled to choose it.

MaizieD private schools offer bursaries and scholarships to children admittedly of academic, sporting or artistic ability. Working class children can benefit from funding too .
Rather than increase fees for parents by 20 per cent by imposing vat on school fees, I would rather see private schools expanding the number of assisted places to enable wider social bands to attend.
Bright children are not the sole province of the upper and middle classes. I think every child deserves an education regardless of social class origins.
I know of one child from a poor economic background who was academically gifted ending up with a double first from Oxford. His only mistake was to become a lawyer when he wanted to teach.
Seems to me that high performance State funded schools can be even more exclusive in their intake than private schools. There are many barriers to entry and they don’t offer a level playing field.
There are also a number of State funded boarding schools in England which offer a very good standard of education. So this might help children who have a limited choice of adequate local schools.
I think we suffer from not caring enough about children and have too long mouthed a limited left wing ideology without regard for individual circumstances.

Doodledog

I wasn't saying that all parent helpers were busybodies, but that many of them were, in my experience, and that I think that TAs with proper contracts are a far better solution.

In my experience, most TAs have a degree.
And at least a Level 3 Diploma in Supporting Teaching and Learning.
(When I was a TA I was the most highly qualified member of staff)

The best way to provide good education for all children would be to put sufficient resources into all state schools. There are plenty of highly effective primary and comprehensive schools; why not emulate the best practice in those?
England has a mish-mash of different types of schools and funding models, many buildings are not fit for purpose, there is a huge crisis in recruitment and retention of staff, insufficient in-service training and low morale.

Doodledog I understand that you feel it’s unfair that decision makers are remote from the effects of inadequate services. I agree that it’s very unfair to have badly funded health and unequal education provision.
I don’t like the economic or political situation we have here just now.
I don’t think that elites worldwide are ever bound by the rules of the majority. If you stop private health and education here, the elite will buy it elsewhere.
Don’t have any solutions but wish for a return to some kind of sanity in public life in the short term!

In one authority I worked in which had outstanding comprehensive schools and sixth-form colleges, the number of families opting for independent schools was much lower than average. It can be done.

Mamie was the authority less densely populated I wonder?