The 10 awkward questions you should throw at an EU 'Rejoiner'

More evidence

The Cabinet Office run by Michael Gove was officially reprimanded by the UK Statistics Authority for using unpublished & unverifiable data in an attempt to deny that Brexit had caused a massive fall in volumes of trade through British ports. The Road Hauliers Association - 68%

See www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

At last someone is using their brain and hopefully without all the 'f*ck business', blaming the French, blaming the EU for decisions our Ministers voted for at Council, etc., associated with Johnson and the rest of the backwoodsmen. It will take years to dig the UK out of the economic hole. The economic growth we once had under Blair has to be regained so we have enough taxation income to support the public services we need. Flag waving won't pay for that.

Siope

^It happened - live with it. That’s democracy^

Democracy also depends includes the right to debate, disagree, campaign, protest (despite this government’s views on that) and use our votes to bring about change.

Dismissive arguments like ‘live with it’, by which you seem to mean that no matter how bad and damaging a policy position is, nobody should ever attempt to change it, is not democracy in any way.

Not, I meant ‘live with it’ as representing the present. It’s where we are.

pascal30

BlueBelle

ExperiencedNotOld

I do apply a pinch of salt to all news articles, whatever their political bent.
However, the facts her seem blatantly clear. Being outside of the EU is not as bad as generally painted, particularly considering that COVID brought problems so soon after our exit.

No it’s not as bad Experienced it’s a HUNDRED TIMES WORSE
Carry on thinking that and reading your Daily wail they ll tell you anything you want to read at least your husband has a more clear view

So true Bluebelle

So, is turning it back on me, to throw a barely veiled insult anything approaching reasoned debate?

ExperiencedNotOld

I posted the link to stimulate debate. And the Daily Mail is available online at no cost, an easily accessible source of news. Reading it doesn’t make me right wing nor, if I had that tendency, make me stupid.
However, the vehemence show in some of the argument against what was said proves nothing other than the ill grace possessed by the losers of the Brexit vote. It happened - live with it. That’s democracy.
I still believe we’re better out of Europe. I’m sure many others do.

What reading the Daily Mail as your source of news does mean ExperiencedNotOld, is that you are reliant on one of the most unreliable and right wing sources of news you could be. Try Sky News, it’s free and much more likely to be telling you the truth.
www.statista.com/statistics/267576/ranking-of-digital-news-sources-in-the-uk-by-opinion-range/

Just ignore the random ‘depends’ in the first line.

It happened - live with it. That’s democracy

Democracy also depends includes the right to debate, disagree, campaign, protest (despite this government’s views on that) and use our votes to bring about change.

Dismissive arguments like ‘live with it’, by which you seem to mean that no matter how bad and damaging a policy position is, nobody should ever attempt to change it, is not democracy in any way.

The Scot’s would have the backing of and finance from the EU, so it would not be an issue.

England would simply be smaller in every way.

“The Scots evidently don't know about it as they would probably rejoin the EU if they gained independence.”

Not unless the rest of the UK does the same, too many border problems.

BlueBelle

ExperiencedNotOld

I do apply a pinch of salt to all news articles, whatever their political bent.
However, the facts her seem blatantly clear. Being outside of the EU is not as bad as generally painted, particularly considering that COVID brought problems so soon after our exit.

No it’s not as bad Experienced it’s a HUNDRED TIMES WORSE
Carry on thinking that and reading your Daily wail they ll tell you anything you want to read at least your husband has a more clear view

So true Bluebelle

I don't mind what paper people read as long as they do so with a questioning mind about what they are reading and its relationship to the truth.
Trade with the EU has dropped there are official figures to show this. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/#.

As for the Common Fisheries policy benefitting the North of England and Scotland I'd like to see evidence of that. The Scots evidently don't know about it as they would probably rejoin the EU if they gained independence.

What is welcome however, is that the Brexit bullies are losing their grip and businesses are more and more willing to stand up to them.

It is certainly not an irrelevant thread as the argument for closer working is being won, even the hard core brexiters like Gove are running away from the reality.

Pretty much an irrelevant thread at present there is not likely to be a change in policy for at least 4 or 5 yrs because Starmer has ruled out rejoining.
Then it will be up to us to accept their rules on whatever changes we want, even then I don’t expect that accepting foreign rule is going to be popular, - that is the way that anti reunion will present it.

“As self inflicted disasters go, Brexit ranks as one of the worse in modern history”

I posted the link to stimulate debate. And the Daily Mail is available online at no cost, an easily accessible source of news. Reading it doesn’t make me right wing nor, if I had that tendency, make me stupid.
However, the vehemence show in some of the argument against what was said proves nothing other than the ill grace possessed by the losers of the Brexit vote. It happened - live with it. That’s democracy.
I still believe we’re better out of Europe. I’m sure many others do.

MerylStreep

easybee
Like you I’ve never hidden how I voted.
Your post reminded me of the first Vote Brexit poster I saw.
It was in the garden of a beautiful listed house near me that is owned by a Dentist.

I’m sorry I’m not quite sure why that is relevant?

eazybee

Thank you ExperiencedNotOld for giving the link to Robert Tombs article about the problems of rejoining the EU. I voted Leave and do not regret it, neither do I conceal my vote. The only thing that annoyed me about the campaign to remain was the insinuation that those who voted Leave were less well educated than those who chose to stay, who clearly understood the situation so much better due to their superior intellect. As indicated by their refusal to read, let alone consider, any information contrary to their beliefs?

Of course I did! I spent a year before the referendum weighing up the facts and what became more and more apparent and to the point - lies.

I was completely open minded and remember posting many posts about how the EU was run and the problems associated with it. But the more I learned the more I understood how our future was without any doubt best served with being part of the European Community. Because I had spent so much time reading about and criticising the European enterprise, I was able to see in clear definition when the lies and fraudulent claims were being made. I wanted none of it.

We are Europeans, our culture is European, our best interests lie in Europe.m

easybee
Like you I’ve never hidden how I voted.
Your post reminded me of the first Vote Brexit poster I saw.
It was in the garden of a beautiful listed house near me that is owned by a Dentist.

Thank you ExperiencedNotOld for giving the link to Robert Tombs article about the problems of rejoining the EU. I voted Leave and do not regret it, neither do I conceal my vote. The only thing that annoyed me about the campaign to remain was the insinuation that those who voted Leave were less well educated than those who chose to stay, who clearly understood the situation so much better due to their superior intellect. As indicated by their refusal to read, let alone consider, any information contrary to their beliefs?

So, some recommendations coming out from the meeting.

1.Be honest about the short comings of Brexit ( I thought most of us are)

2. Clear interest in a closer and productive relationship with the EU ( I can see some cynical grins over that statement)

3. We have a clear and shared interest with the EU in containing Russian aggression.

4. We have a shared interest in developing new sources of energy.

5. Shared interest in building major technological companies with their capital base this side of the Atlantic rather than the USA.

6. The U.K. and EU have a common defence interest.

7. Need to forge closer links to stop organised crime.

8. Need to forge closer links to tackle illegal immigration.

9. Explore the possibility of a joint aEU-U.K. policy towards China. ( one reason being that as an individual country our position is too weak to deal with China on our own)

So an exercise in re-inventing the wheel that has cost this country billion upon untold billions of pounds that if used sensibly would see a world beating NHS, a world beating education system and no division.

It makes me absolutely furious when I read some of the statements in the foreword paper to the meeting in Oxford.

Statements like “how can we move on from the current mix of nostalgia and antagonism to excitement about what the future could bring with closer relationships between Britain and the EU”

And “ how can we make Brexit work better with our neighbours in Europe”

Talk about reinventing the wheel. And half of those attending brought about the disaster themselves by lies and promises that they must have known were never going to happen.

The only good that will come of this meeting is the recognition that Brexit is indeed the disaster that those with more than 2 brain cells foretold.

Nothing else will come of it because we have a government held capture by the far right and entirely unable to meet the social and economic requirements of a modern social democracy.

One awful side effect of Brexit that we haven't mentioned is the sheer amount of time spent on trying to get it "right" after the vote

- do you remember day after day of endless debates, as Teresa may tried to get agreement on this or that or the other in her own party, when the problems in care provision, the NHS, early food banks, were desperately calling out for attention, and got passed by week after week. The legacy of that neglect is now upon us.
Oh if we could turn the clock back, knowing what we do now. Most voters including me had little idea of the full consequences - the headlines won and then after all the too's and fro's along comes the promise of "Oven Ready". ghastly.

I think Doodle has hit the nail on the head. My heart sank when the Brexit vote happened, but did at least expect that there would be some intelligent negotiating of terms.

And telling people (who I work with, and are good, kind people who frequently live in almost impossible circumstances) that they are stupid, makes other people such as myself who voted remain, who has a European father, wonder what 'side' they are on.

Hi ExperiencedNotOld. Huge problem with the article is that they are continuing to make it an "either/or.

ie either we stay as we are, or we go for total rejoining.

But although deep many of us would like to re-join, politicians of most colours take a pragmatic stance, which is to remedy problems caused by Brexit by measures of signing up to trade, standards, limited movement, and customs deals.

Deals that make it easy and clear for business's to trade, keep tariff costs down, smooth transit of goods, solving the NI dilemma, and allowing our young people to access jobs and universities abroad and allowing in vital workers in areas we are short in.

*Its a shame the Daily Mail doesn't give its readers the option at least of understanding these compromises by insisting on an "either/or" - don't you think this would be valuable, *ExperiencedNotOld?