Shock result of latest polling

I don't think you really understand what service industries are.

No Katie I don't think I am. By the way, I assume you realise that my income is in the bottom decile. I'm way below the poverty line.

growstuff

Katie59

I want the government to borrow more to expand the economy, in recent times it has borrowed to support the population, as far as I can see that is going to continue with no proper business plan.

That does not mean more employment it means better employment by the use of new technology and automation. The so called service economy has only resulted in a decline in living standards especially for the poorest, or can someone point were it has benefited us

What do you mean by "so called"? What else would you like the provision of services to be called?

Providing services to other people benefits everybody's lifestyle. .

Try telling that to be 23% of the population below the poverty line. Or nurses that are struggling with real wage cuts, you are so out of touch.

Katie59

I want the government to borrow more to expand the economy, in recent times it has borrowed to support the population, as far as I can see that is going to continue with no proper business plan.

That does not mean more employment it means better employment by the use of new technology and automation. The so called service economy has only resulted in a decline in living standards especially for the poorest, or can someone point were it has benefited us

What do you mean by "so called"? What else would you like the provision of services to be called?

Providing services to other people benefits everybody's lifestyle. .

Its a well known fact that people don't always tell the truth when asked these questions. It could be completely wrong.
I think the Labour Party will win. No one trusts the Conservatives any more. Its time anyway for a change. Just a matter of time Brexit and Covid have just made it inevitable.

I want the government to borrow more to expand the economy, in recent times it has borrowed to support the population, as far as I can see that is going to continue with no proper business plan.

That does not mean more employment it means better employment by the use of new technology and automation. The so called service economy has only resulted in a decline in living standards especially for the poorest, or can someone point were it has benefited us

MaizieD

Some 50 years ago, when I was at college, a lecturer pointed out that that state 'benefits' kept money circulating in the economy. That that was a good reason for introducing them.
It seemed so obvious that I just don't understand why people cannot grasp this fact.

What does Katie59 want? That people who can't 'earn' their money, or who are too old or ill to work, are left to starve? That the economy contracts even further so more people are put out of work?

Some of the poorest people do work anyway, providing profits for those in the upper echelons.

The poll result is hardly a shock given the state of the economy, energy prices, cost of living, Brexit mess ups, etc. after 13 years of inept Tory government - 5 PMs in 14 years must be a record for a Party in chaos.

The ONS reckons that prostitution and illegal drugs contribute £10 billion a year to GDP. So there's an idea! Increase growth by setting up a business selling crack and selling your body. If you can't sell your own body, set up a porn site!

Growth really is a silly measure of a country's wealth.

Yes I hope Labour will win the next general election across the whole UK. Time for better governance especially in Scotland. Let's work together for the benefit of all our people.

jenpax

Zoejory

I don't think it's a shock. Labour will win the next election.

Lets hope so! Its hardly a surprise the Tories are so unpopular!

Two life-time Tory voters told me last week that they would vote Labour is there is an election soon.

😲

Some 50 years ago, when I was at college, a lecturer pointed out that that state 'benefits' kept money circulating in the economy. That that was a good reason for introducing them.
It seemed so obvious that I just don't understand why people cannot grasp this fact.

What does Katie59 want? That people who can't 'earn' their money, or who are too old or ill to work, are left to starve? That the economy contracts even further so more people are put out of work?

Katie59

If government money creates growth that is good, most of of does not, if it is used to buy food or pay rent or buy new shoes for the kids, it provides very little growth or tax revenue. With nearly 1/4 of the population below the official poverty line most of the borrowing is being used to support them.

Most growth is being achieve by commercial and domestic borrowing, most of us have a loan to buy a house a car, or most large items. State borrowing that provides commercial growth or tax revenue is very limited

How do you work that one out?

Of course money spent on food and new shoes can create growth. I don't even know where to start with this argument.

Maybe you'd like to explain what you understand by growth and just why it's inevitably a good thing.

It is absolute nonsense to claim that most borrowing supports people below the poverty line. Again, maybe you'd like to explain.

I don't think you even understand what state borrowing entails and what happens to the money "borrowed".

Yes. Definetly Labour will win the next election

Zoejory

I don't think it's a shock. Labour will win the next election.

Lets hope so! Its hardly a surprise the Tories are so unpopular!

If government money creates growth that is good, most of of does not, if it is used to buy food or pay rent or buy new shoes for the kids, it provides very little growth or tax revenue. With nearly 1/4 of the population below the official poverty line most of the borrowing is being used to support them.

Most growth is being achieve by commercial and domestic borrowing, most of us have a loan to buy a house a car, or most large items. State borrowing that provides commercial growth or tax revenue is very limited

PS. If the government creates money, what do you think happens to it? It creates growth! The problem comes when a government is reluctant to get it back by taxing and/or lets people who will squirrel it away get hold of it.

Which far-left economists? I assume you're back to your hobbyhorse about MMT. Economists who actually know how the economy works (ie not like a household budget) have a range of political views - some don't have party political views at all.

Ironically, Truss' and Kwarteng's big plan would have "created" more money than Labour ever will. The Conservatives have "created" more money over the last couple of years than any government in history. They're hardly "far left"!

growstuff

MaizieD

I wouldn't mind some MPs who actually know how a national economy works... That would be novel...

I suspect that some of them do know. However, it suits their agenda to peddle the household budget line.

I expect all those at the top of their party to have access to the very knowledgeable where the economy is concerned.

It's economics by ideology that is the issue. On one extreme, you have the "you haven't paid in enough so we can't do it, but we can tax wealth less and you may get a crumb out of that" lot who think the only way of growing the wealth of the country is to grow the wealth of individuals and profit makers who are already wealthy.

On the other extreme, those trying to convince us that just because we print or electronically create the money, we can spend what we like, even if it outstrips our own economic growth or expected growth. Also, we do not see the need to show the rest of the world what they need to know to support us. Everyone else, apparently, is too stupid to know the new Messiah has risen.

While the Conservatives have moved far enough right to accept their extremist's views (so far), I don't think Starmer, et al have moved as far to the left as much as their far-left economists would like to push them.

MaizieD

I wouldn't mind some MPs who actually know how a national economy works... That would be novel...

I suspect that some of them do know. However, it suits their agenda to peddle the household budget line.

MaizieD

ronib

Daisy Anne sorry I didn’t think about presentation of the data. Just pointing out that some mps do have formal degrees in economics and politics . Bit puzzling really.

If you mean they have PPE degrees they really seem to mean sweet F A.

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/sep/23/ppe-passport-power-degree-oxford

It was in the Guardian, Maizie. All newspapers have their bias.

I certainly admit to wishing we had a team that spent more time running things than playing politics.

MaizieD I was just looking up the syllabus for PEP at Oxford. For once we are in complete agreement. What a ragbag!

ronib

Daisy Anne sorry I didn’t think about presentation of the data. Just pointing out that some mps do have formal degrees in economics and politics . Bit puzzling really.

If you mean they have PPE degrees they really seem to mean sweet F A.

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/sep/23/ppe-passport-power-degree-oxford

Daisy Anne sorry I didn’t think about presentation of the data. Just pointing out that some mps do have formal degrees in economics and politics . Bit puzzling really.

Casdon

‘But I would still ask the question, Why was this article in this paper and what is their aim in it being there in such a hyped manner. I really do not think it was to help the Labour Party win, not do I think it was on a whim, with no intention.’

This DaisyAnne. I had read your previous posts, but to be honest I don’t understand what you’re trying to get across, what your own view is. All media has a bias, surely?

Sorry I haven't written so you can understand what I am saying Casdon. It may become clear over time - or not.