WW 3 ..is this the reality?

maddyone

DaisyAnne I already listed the facts in my post of 01.23. Why do I need to do it again?
But since you need it twice, here are the facts for you;

1) Annexation of Crimea by Putin
2) Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko, using polonium delivered by a cup of tea in a London hotel by Russian agents
3) Attempted poisoning of the Skripals using novichov in Salisbury by Russian agents
4) One woman died and four people seriously injured by novochov in Salisbury following the attempted murder of the Skripals by Russian agents
5) The shooting down of flight MH17 over Ukraine murdering 298 people by a Russian surface to air missile which was moved into position the morning it happened

What exactly are you disputing? The above are undisputed facts. They describe Russian aggression and incursions into the sovereign land of other countries, in two cases incursions into Britain to commit illegal and aggressive acts.

None of those are " undisputed" facts though are they?
Just because something is what your government and media choose to report as fact, doesn't make them so.
Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq were reported as fact by the US and UK to justify an illegal invasion.
By your own definition that makes the US and UK guilty of the same acts of aggression as Russia doesn't it?

Putin may well have invoked Article 51 over the Donbas but he had already taken over Crimea, then when the invasion started he not only moved into Donbass but attempted to attack Kiev as well before he was driven back.

The real plan was to annex the whole of Ukraine and install a Russia friendly government like Belarus, he was not expecting them to fight. Now Putins justification is to liberate Donbass again, his future depends on holding that territory, if he looses it he will be deposed.

It also seems that Ukraine did not commit or threaten to commit an armed attack against Russia. Donetsk and Luhansk are not UN states. Ukraine was fighting a civil war.
Therefore United Nations Article 51 would not apply?

I feel as I have been dropped down a rabbit hole. I have just read that Putin invoked United Nations Article 51 which provides legal justification for a military operation in Ukraine. Putin is in compliance with international law it seems.
www.global research.ca
Setting the record straight;stuff you should know about Ukraine.
Mike Whitney

Curious and curiouser

MOnica I thought the issue for Putin was that a guerilla war had been ongoing in Ukraine in the Donbas since 2014 and he felt justified in bringing it to a speedy conclusion to save more lives. Sounds bizarre I agree but that’s one interpretation at least.

If the west hadn't intervened and supplied weaponry, Ukraine would have been taken over by Russia by now, but you would have a low level guerilla war going on between oppressors and oppressed and that kind of war can be nastier, messier and lead to more deaths than a more formal war between countries, at least theoretically, governed by the Geneva Conventions.

Casdon I am probably in a minority but for the life of me, I can’t see Russia walking away from this conflict undefeated. Russia is too proud to admit defeat and will throw every Russian young soldier at the problem.

ronib

NanKate if you ask any military personnel about how to resolve conflict/war, the view is that political solutions kick in once the fighting has reached stalemate.
Bearing that in mind, it’s arguably true that the West is prolonging this conflict as stalemate will take much longer?

The alternative to the West’s involvement wouldn’t be stalemate and a political solution, Russia doesn’t recognise Ukraine, so it would be subjugation.

NanKate if you ask any military personnel about how to resolve conflict/war, the view is that political solutions kick in once the fighting has reached stalemate.
Bearing that in mind, it’s arguably true that the West is prolonging this conflict as stalemate will take much longer?

In years to come they will say the war was extended by the slowness of NATO countries giving Ukraine what it needed.

Let’s hope the result is an Ukraine win and Putin being made to pay for his murderous invasion.

I understand that Norway is the latest nation to offer tanks to Ukraine.

Grantanow

No. We are much further from WW3 than we were in 1962 at the height of the Cuban missile crisis when most of the Left, CND, etc., swallowed Soviet assurances there were no missiles only to be embarrassed after a few weeks by the aerial photographs showing them in place. Well handled by JFK and Robert McNamara and a careful back down by Kruschev. I doubt any jets will be sent to Ukraine by the UK unless they are tokens. Long training and limited supplies!

Actually the deal between Khrushchev and Kennedy was.

We will remove our missiles from Cuba if you remove yours from Turkey.

On a more positive side, if you look at it this way, it is reported that Putin is more and more dependent on China on the international stage and China has made it clear that Russia will lose its support if it uses nuclear weapons.

Sadly all the efforts of Gorbachev and other Presidents of the Federation of Russia were wasted once Putin came to power.

That’s okay DaisyAnne.
Did you, or anyone else, watch Putin versus the West on BBC2 last night. It outlines the situation with Putin from the 2014 annexation on Crimea, so doesn’t include anything from before that time such as the poisoning of Litvinenko who was targeted in 2006. Surprisingly neither was the shooting down of MH17 mentioned and that happened in 2014 too. So there were omissions but nonetheless it outlined efforts by the west to work with Putin, but it all fell on stony ground sadly, and Putin waged war on Ukraine last year.

maddyone

Incidentally DaisyAnne these facts are not my facts, they are the facts. Why are you aggressively questioning me about undisputed facts?

Thank you for listing them maddyone.

It does not sound like there is much hope for a quick peaceful end in Ukraine

Thank you for your detailed link MaizieD

www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2022/2/pdf/220214-factsheet_NATO-Russia_Relations_e.pdf

Thanks

www.nato.int/factsheets
I googled NATO - Russia relations and one of the links was the NATO page.

Can you post a link to that article, GG13. I'm finding it difficult to read. It's too small when I click on it and enlarging it just makes the print go paler and fuzzy.

If you can't post a link I'll try it on my mini Ipad. It might enlarge better.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202302/medium-800870-23f55e29-f9c9-4591-a011-baa29b1e8e6f.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202302/medium-464416-2ef175cf-a7bf-4427-bfb9-285280a0c839.png

Here is a brief explanation of Russia’s relationship with NATO

So Greyduster it’s a pity Russia has been excluded from the NATO alliance therefore?

The fact that both Greece and Turkey are members of NATO should keep them from getting in each other’s hair then!😁