Politics are moderating in the U.K.

No Glorianny I said ilovecheese had let her emotions get the better of her because her antipathy meant she hadn’t read what Starmer actually said, which was not as she portrayed it. I’ve had enough of histrionic politics. I want somebody who is a grown up, quiet, efficient, caring , has credibility outside the UK, and will deliver what they say they will. You don’t have to be a table thumper or an orator to deliver, and delivery is what wins respect. That might not be what the public thinks it wants, being used to charlatans recently, but it’s definitely what is needed.

Casdon

Glorianny

When has it been wrong to be emotional about politics? Maybe that's what's wrong with things today. The only emotion permissible is hate and anger by the far right. Those of us who care are just supposed to pretend it's all cerebral when it's obvious some passionate care and consideration is what is needed.

Being emotional is understandable if you have employed your reason first and recognised when your views are on the extreme edges and you are frustrated, but that doesn’t mean you should attempt to foist them on the electorate when it’s clear they don’t share those views. Hate and anger by the far left is no more acceptable than the same by the far right.

I take great exception to the implication that others don’t care, which is errant nonsense. Others care, and see that the way to achieve a better society is through planned change not revolution.

Casdon you accused ilovecheese of letting her emotions get the better of her, because of her views on the nurses.
It isn't planning Starmr needs, he has heaps of that. Unfortunately he's singularly lacking in emotion or passion.
They appeal to the public. It's one thing Blair knew (and so did Boris)

DaisyAnne

Ilovecheese

The way he won't even support the nurses, after all they did for us, makes me want to weep.

I've a feeling you need either your eyes or your ears or possibly both, testing. Or you simply like making up what has been said - when it hasn't.

Starmer has supported the nurses. He isn't in power so he can't change their incomes.

Three times he refused to say he would stand on picket lines with them www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-nhs-nurses-strike-picket-b2197178.html
How is that "supporting them"?

Glorianny

When has it been wrong to be emotional about politics? Maybe that's what's wrong with things today. The only emotion permissible is hate and anger by the far right. Those of us who care are just supposed to pretend it's all cerebral when it's obvious some passionate care and consideration is what is needed.

Being emotional is understandable if you have employed your reason first and recognised when your views are on the extreme edges and you are frustrated, but that doesn’t mean you should attempt to foist them on the electorate when it’s clear they don’t share those views. Hate and anger by the far left is no more acceptable than the same by the far right.

I take great exception to the implication that others don’t care, which is errant nonsense. Others care, and see that the way to achieve a better society is through planned change not revolution.

^ Is there anyone else here who does not always vote Labour?^

Me, Anniel.

Not until I grew older and the Lib Dems did dreadful things when in coalition with the tories.

Spot on Fleurpepper, they are not the same thing, but Keir Starmer does seem to confuse them.

I am sure you are not the only Conservative on Gransnet Anniel but maybe as the Conservatives are in power at the moment, their supporters don't feel the need to discuss it as much?
I don't feel very strongly about immigration, so many of us are descendants of people who have moved here as refugees, or just to seek a better life. It would be good if decisions could be made more quickly and people be able to settle and work sooner, but it is a very serious decision, whether someone should be able to stay or not and shouldn't be rushed.

Glorianny

It also seems extrordinary to me that a party which has had complaints from Jews is now cleared of anti-semitism. policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism-
Seems very odd that Jews can be suspended for antisemitism.

I have many Jewish friends who are totally anti- zionism, and totally denounce the behaviour of Israel towards Palestine. You can be anti-zionism and not at all antisemitic- like me for instance and many others I know.

Am I the only Conservative voter on GRANSNET? The vast majority of voters here seem to be Labour or SNP if you live in Scotland. I am also currently disillusioned with my own party and think it is time for Labour to be in government. I find this thread very one sided. Starmer is looking to get support from the Red Wall and therefore he realises that to gain confidence he must convince those former Labour voters that the UK will not rejoin the EU under his government. As for Corbyn I expect the strong Labour support in Islington will have the funds for him to continue as their MP. Why is the left here so one eyed? Anyone who despairs of the lack of controlled immigration is deemed as right wing and in some quarters as racist. The cost to the country of allowing the current system to continue is not good and obviously the recent Home Secretaries have been a disaster. Why the Home Office fails to make decisions on asylum applications is a complete mystery. Then I am not convinced that bringing so many people from Muslim countries will not impact our tolerant culture. No feminist can surely be happy that women could lose safe spaces to trans men who have not undergone surgical intervention. If only Nicola Sturgeon had realised that her gender recognition legislation was a step too far I have no doubt she would still be the SNP leader, I am interested in following who will take over her place. I find myself in a very small minority here. And I am interested as to why that is. I am not very right wing and am certainly not a racist. But I do not vote Labour. I mainly find Lib Democrats are very good at local government and my vote went to them when I was in London. Is there anyone else here who does not always vote Labour?

Ilovecheese

The way he won't even support the nurses, after all they did for us, makes me want to weep.

I've a feeling you need either your eyes or your ears or possibly both, testing. Or you simply like making up what has been said - when it hasn't.

Starmer has supported the nurses. He isn't in power so he can't change their incomes.

While the obvious answer might once have been Labour, as things are at the moment, I wouldn't be too sure. I would not put it past the Conservatives to offer them a pay rise higher than Labour would, just prior to the next election.
I think that is why Labour are reluctant to give a figure that they would offer, if in Government, because they are afraid that the current Government would top it.

Which government do you think the nurses would be better off under?

When has it been wrong to be emotional about politics? Maybe that's what's wrong with things today. The only emotion permissible is hate and anger by the far right. Those of us who care are just supposed to pretend it's all cerebral when it's obvious some passionate care and consideration is what is needed.

It's not prejudice, although I do feel emotional about it. I am one of the gullible fools who voted for him as leader because I believed he would keep the pledges he made.
I am just so disappointed.

Ilovecheese

The way he won't even support the nurses, after all they did for us, makes me want to weep.

In that case you clearly need to re-read what he’s actually said, instead of letting your emotions and prejudices get the better of you.

The way he won't even support the nurses, after all they did for us, makes me want to weep.

It also seems extrordinary to me that a party which has had complaints from Jews is now cleared of anti-semitism. policymogul.com/key-updates/13485/-large-and-growing-number-of-jewish-members-of-labour-party-suspended-or-investigated-over-antisemitism-
Seems very odd that Jews can be suspended for antisemitism.

Dinahmo

I thought that Corbyn was good in the televised hustings that I watched. The LP policies at the last GE were also good.
Unfortunately Corbyn's method or dealing with the various political interviewers on tv was dire. He became angry very quickly and that is no way to deal with the likes of Andrew Neil et al.

I watched Starmer's announcement concerning anti semitism and thought he spoke very eloquently and dealt with the reporters in a civilised and friendly manner.

It's interesting how people watching the same broadcast can have such differing opinions.

That's true Starmer always looks shifty to me. He is I can see trying his best but there is always too much of the lawyer about him for me. I'd just like o see a bit of passion and some commitment to LP values. If he went and stood with the striking nurses I'd have a lot more respect for him

I thought that Corbyn was good in the televised hustings that I watched. The LP policies at the last GE were also good.
Unfortunately Corbyn's method or dealing with the various political interviewers on tv was dire. He became angry very quickly and that is no way to deal with the likes of Andrew Neil et al.

I watched Starmer's announcement concerning anti semitism and thought he spoke very eloquently and dealt with the reporters in a civilised and friendly manner.

It's interesting how people watching the same broadcast can have such differing opinions.

Incidentally anyone who attended any LP meeting in the run up to the 2019 election would have heard the phrase "The LP is not a leave or a remain party, it is a socialist party."
The pity is that the people who really needed that party and those politics were sold down the river by a snake-oil salesman, who promised the streets would be paved with gold once Brexit got done.

MaizieD

Glorianny

I notice that this thread seems to have an over emphasis on the position of the LP on Brexit. Perhaps because nothing is on offer in UK politics now that isn't right wing or far right wing and moderate isn't really moderate at all just watered down Toryism

You might feel that it's 'overemphasis', Glorianny, but I think it was Corbyn's hubris that delivered us into the hands of the current appalling government. He threw away a good political position because, a) he wanted Brexit and b) he was misled by the chanting and adoration into thinking that he had his finger on the political pulse of the country.

He betrayed the Remain voting majority of Labour voters and scared the more centrist, conservative (small 'c'), Labour voters with his messianic followers.

Of course the RW media didn't help, but neither did his lack of political acumen.

I don't enjoy the current Labour caution and I think their grasp of economics is poor (but that goes for all the parties), but I don't see them as watered down tories; I see concern for a wider cross section of society than ever the tories have displayed and I see potential for promoting the sort of mixed economy the country was comfortable with until Thatcher set about destroying it.

Time will tell. But you won't get any improvement unless the LP is actually in power.

Actually it was most probably the right wing of the LP who delivered us into the position of having this government. Had they fully backed Corbyn, not worked internally to undermine him and provided the necessary support in 2017 there might well have been a Labour government and no need for the 2019 GE. Corbyn threw nothing away, although possibly the LP right wing were happier to see Johnson installed in No 10 than they would have been to see Corbyn. Internal party politics, controlled by unelected party officials, rewarded for their actions by the present Labour leader, being what really gave us this government.
It's a far more worrying scenario for democratic politics, but much easier to blame one man.

Whitewavemark2

Glorianny

Whitewavemark2

Urmstongran

Hmm.
This Corbyn debacle isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

“JEREMY CORBYN has vowed to fight the next election as a Labour MP after Sir Keir Starmer announced he would be barred from standing for the party.

The former leader said his successor’s decision to bar his candidacy was a “flagrant attack on the democratic rights of members”.

Feeling are running high in his Islington constituency!

Don’t be taken in by bluss and blunder (is that even a word?) but Corbyn does not have the whip, nor will he be funded by the LP. Any political party is entirely within its rights to refuse membership. The Tory party have got rid of dozens of people these past couple of years or so.

He is of course entirely free to stand as an independent, or even start a left wing political party.

Now that would be democracy 🙂

So the local members of the political party who have over many years shown their support for the MP should have no say in who represents that party, but one man, who seems to merely adjust and alter his beliefs according to what he imagines will make him popular, can decide for them. The NEC agreed to end Corbyn's suspension, but Starmer refused to readmit him. What is democratic about that?

Then if Corbyn thinks he has the backing he should stand as an independent.

The LP has decided that Corbyn rightly or wrongly no longer reflects its values.

Corbyn could prove to the LP that his values are respected and win as an independent.

WWMk2 which LP is that? The LP NEC restored Corbyn to full membership of the LP. Only Starmer withheld the whip. As I said it isn't a party decison it is one man's decision and how is that democratic?
Incidentally one of Starmer's promises when he became leader was that he would unite the party. If Islington is an example of that he is manifestly breaking his word.

Maisie

“I see potential for promoting the sort of mixed economy the country was comfortable with until Thatcher set about destroying it.”

100% support that goal.

Glorianny

I notice that this thread seems to have an over emphasis on the position of the LP on Brexit. Perhaps because nothing is on offer in UK politics now that isn't right wing or far right wing and moderate isn't really moderate at all just watered down Toryism

Great reply from Maizie, thanks.

No over-emphasis- it is a massively important issue. Brexit has proven to be even more of a disaster than predicted- and solutions have to be found. Corbyn won't!

Corbyn may well be an honest, committed and principled politician, but proved to be a very ineffective leader, he has had his day he should retire gracefully